National Defence Committee on Feb. 14th, 2023

[RAdm Lou Carosielli]

Thank you, Jon.

I do want to reiterate that absolutely the Canadian Armed Forces are responsible for defending the networks and IT systems for the Canadian Armed Forces and the Department of National Defence.

That said, we work very closely with our partners within CSE, RCMP, Global Affairs Canada, etc. We work to ensure that we share all of the information that we receive among the partners from intelligence, such as indications of compromises, etc., so that all of us have a good wealth of information and understand what's going on in the other networks. Of course, what's happening in one network could just be a precursor of what's to come on another one.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you for that information. Obviously it's a complex answer, and who leads depends on which aspect of cybersecurity we're talking about.

When it comes to the offensive operations, these operations conducted in relation to other countries, who leads those cyber-operations when it comes to strategy?

[Jonathan Quinn]

I'll start and then hand it over to the admiral in case he'd like to add something.

The Canadian Armed Forces have the authority to conduct offensive cyber-operations in the context of approved military missions. In those, it's the Canadian Armed Forces leading and conducting offensive cyber-operations under their own authorities, often with assistance from colleagues at the Communications Security Establishment.

There are other offensive cyber-operations that are conducted under CSE authorities, under the CSE act. I think you had previous witnesses from CSE who would be much more qualified than I am to speak in detail about how those operations are conducted. Equally, as the admiral mentioned, when CSE is conducting offensive cyber-operations under the CSE act, they are able to reach over to the Canadian Armed Forces for assistance as required under section 20 of the act.

[RAdm Lou Carosielli]

I have nothing else to add to that, Jon.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have about one minute.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you for that.

I wonder if you could speak a little bit more about the relationship between CAF and the CSE.

You spoke about the integration between your operations. I'm curious the relative size of those cyber-operations. Which of those teams is larger and how you would characterize the size ratio between those two operations?

[RAdm Lou Carosielli]

I won't be able to give you definitive numbers with respect to the sizes because I don't have the numbers for CSE. That's not within my area of responsibility.

With respect to the importance of the two teams working together, as I had previously indicated, the teams work together day in and day out, every single week. We have embedded personnel in each other's teams so that we understand each others' techniques, tactics and policies and can best support each other to meet our respective operational requirements.

At the various levels, we meet regularly. I meet with my CSE counterparts on a weekly basis in certain meetings and more globally on a monthly or quarterly basis. Those relationships are absolutely essential to ensuring that both organizations have the tools and the capabilities available to each other.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

Colleagues, since we only have one witness for the second half, I'm thinking that we should get in a full second round.

With that, Mrs. Gallant, you have five minutes.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Is it possible for surveillance balloons to jam or interfere with Canadian cyber-communications or infrastructure in ways not possible by other platforms?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'd encourage members to.... I had said we were going to be dealing with the balloons on Friday.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

This is cyber, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I know.

I'm going to let the question stand, but I would encourage members to stay with the subject matter before us.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Restart the clock.

[RAdm Lou Carosielli]

Unfortunately, I cannot answer that question, as I don't know what technology is on those high-altitude objects. I would not want to speculate on what the capabilities are or are not.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Can cyber-communications from high altitudes be detected by radio telescopes?

[RAdm Lou Carosielli]

Radio telescopes are not within my area of expertise. I would not be able to answer that question.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Okay.

You mentioned earlier that there's a buildup or increase in cyber-incidents before a kinetic attack.

In late January, we saw the FAA notification system go down. On the heels of that, we saw Canada's civil aviation NOTAM system go down. Then, within a matter of days, there was this airship going across our atmosphere.

Would that be considered something kinetic, after a lead-up through cyber-operations?

[RAdm Lou Carosielli]

I can't respond to that question, as I believe the two examples with respect to transport in the U.S. and in Canada were linked to software issues. They were not cyber-related, to the best of my recollection. It was several weeks ago. I have no understanding of the link between that and the high-altitude objects, as I've not read into that file.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

If our government can't get over its anathema toward nuclear-powered submarines, we'll have to rely on drones to provide subsurface awareness. Would underwater drones be vulnerable to cyber-attacks?

[RAdm Lou Carosielli]

The response to that is obviously quite complicated, as it depends on the technologies. I will indicate, as a naval officer and naval engineer, that underwater techniques are some of the most difficult to jam. They're also the most difficult to communicate with because of the medium.

I'll leave my answer at that because, again, it's not my area of expertise and it's not within my area of responsibility at this time.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Okay.

This is for Mr. Quinn as well.

Do the Canadian Armed Forces have any infrastructure or equipment with components from a supply chain that China was involved in? That can be any kind of equipment, not just computer equipment.

[Jonathan Quinn]

I am not an expert on the components that go into the Canadian Armed Forces' capabilities. My suspicion is that there probably are some components of the Canadian Armed Forces' capabilities that have components that were manufactured in China, but I'm not an expert on that. I'm sorry.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

How does CAF harden its equipment to safeguard from intrusions via the Internet of things?

[RAdm Lou Carosielli]

As I previously indicated, the Canadian Armed Forces take responsibility for defending our networks and IT systems. We have various means and ways to protect our networks and the systems that are being used. We have levels at different granularity. We start off at perimeter defence, which is the external networks, and it goes all the way down to host space, which is, as an example, a laptop or a computer.

Of course, due to security classifications I cannot go into details in this room on how that's done, but it is something that we do on a daily basis to protect our networks.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Nowadays, even a fridge in the staff room can have Wi-Fi on it. Is there anything done to make sure that the military software isn't connecting to the fridge?