National Defence Committee on Feb. 14th, 2023

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

That's no problem, Mr. Chair. I answer to just about anything.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Well, I'm not inviting you to supper, so there you are.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

These bad jokes get embarrassing, don't they?

Go ahead, Ms. Gallant.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you.

How does China capitalize off Russian propaganda disinformation for its own purposes?

[Marcus Kolga]

That's an excellent question.

What we're seeing is a close alignment right now of Chinese disinformation and Russian disinformation. They support each other. The Chinese information ecosystem, so to speak—the media ecosystem—is absolutely parroting Russian disinformation when it comes to Ukraine and other subjects right now. Russian state media does the same with China. They're in lockstep right now and supporting each other.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

We have some superior cyberwarriors, but they don't want to deploy to a theatre of war. How necessary is it that our cyberwarriors be deployable?

[Marcus Kolga]

Well, in terms of cyberwarriors, I would also say that in the realm of disinformation, it's really important that we have offensive capabilities and that we push back. I think we've spent the past several years trying to figure out what this threat looks like and how to defend ourselves. If we're constantly on the defence, we're not going to stop Russia or China.

Ukraine has demonstrated as well that the only way to stop Putin's aggression is by stopping him. That means going on the offensive and pushing back, as Ukraine is doing right now with Russia's forces. We need to do the same in the cyber realm with disinformation. Pushing back and going on the offensive will stop Vladimir Putin and other authoritarians like him.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Can we do that, though, without enlisting into the military the people who are very good at doing exactly what you just described?

[Marcus Kolga]

Well, I think some of these people get good at what they're doing by not necessarily always.... It's a good question. I would say that at least in the information realm, I think we can train the right people. We don't have to go and find these actors who are operating with others, whether it's criminal organizations or foreign adversaries. We can train them right here at home.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Okay.

One of the narratives being propagated is that high-ranking Ukrainian officials are using the international contributions toward the war for their own purposes. How does one expose that disinformation so that they're not countering the efforts of Canadian parliamentarians who are trying to do the right thing to protect democracy all over the world?

[Marcus Kolga]

Thank you for that question.

This is one of the top narratives that Russia is trying to promote in the west to try to erode our support for Ukraine. Facts and the truth are what will debunk that narrative. The fact that Ukraine is fighting corruption in Ukraine....

All of the military support we're sending them is being closely tracked and monitored. These narratives that suggest some of this equipment is being sold on the black market are completely false, and there is proof of that. The problem is that Russian state media will ignore the facts. They don't report the truth, and they will continue to report lies like that. All we can do is make sure that our media do have the facts; that our elected officials, when they speak about supporting Ukraine, have the facts; and that those facts are promoted properly in this country and Canadians are aware of them.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Gallant.

Mr. Fisher, you have the final four minutes.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Kolga.

Some of the topics are starting to blur a little bit, and some of the same questions are being asked by the same people.

I think you were here during the first hour in the back of the room. Were you?

[Marcus Kolga]

Yes, I was.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I asked this question at a previous meeting as well. Today's response from the rear admiral was considerably different from the response I got last week. I want to ask you for your perspective.

The world generally believed that Russia was a cyber-power, and arguably they are. We think of them as being the best at misinformation, disinformation and cyberwarfare. I think we also felt as a world generally that they were a military superpower as well. Over the last year, I think some of that stuff has been debunked.

I'm curious about your thoughts on their philosophy of hybrid warfare, which is a little bit of cyber and then throw in a bomb. I know this was touched on a little bit with some of the other members, but I'm interested in your thoughts on whether they are underwhelming in the cyber world and the military world, or whether you think that's just the wrong perspective. I'm interested in your thoughts on that.

[Marcus Kolga]

I think Russia has failed in many ways over the past 12 months.

Certainly, militarily, as you mentioned, they are clearly not the force we feared they would be. With regard to disinformation, they have certainly been losing the fight against President Zelenskyy and his government, who have done an incredible job of countering many of those Russian narratives. Russian information operations and cyber-operations as well were targeting the cohesion of our allies and our alliances. The fact that we are more aligned than ever before on Ukraine, the fact that we continue to support Ukraine.... We are sending them tanks. We will, hopefully, start sending them F-18s in the future. I think all of this demonstrates that in those two realms, Russia is not the adversary we feared it was.

With regard to cyber, I think we've seen a lull in activity. Russia has really focused its efforts on Ukraine specifically. I'm deeply concerned that once this war ends—and it will end—and when Russia is able to regroup in the cyber realm and in the information realm, but primarily in the cyber realm, and is able to focus on our European allies and on us, we may yet be unprepared. I don't think we can really assess Russia's cyber capabilities right now, because they've changed and their focus has shifted, so I think it remains to be seen.

As I said, when this war ends, I think we're going to see Putin unleash those cyberwarriors against us. Hopefully, we will be prepared.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

You gave a couple of examples that were probably meant to be a little bit silly. You talked about sending people in dresses to—I don't know what you were talking about—Estonia and Latvia. Can you give us some examples?

I can remember that one time when I was flipping through Facebook, I saw that somebody on my Facebook page had shared this incredible fake newscast that the Americans had just attacked the Russians. It looked so real.

I wonder if you could give us a couple of examples of some of the things they've done that might have been worthy of the fear that we might have allowed them—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Answer very briefly, please.

[Marcus Kolga]

Those two examples that I gave you did have a significant impact on Russian speakers in Latvia. That is of serious concern. In 2020, the GRU Ghostwriter campaign that suggested that Canadian troops had caught COVID when they were at home and were spreading it to Latvians made national headlines in Latvia. It was a complete fabrication, but it was picked up.

Stories like this may sound small and insignificant and they may sound silly, but they do have an impact.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That will conclude our session today.

On behalf of the committee, I want to thank Mr. Kolga for his always lucid testimony. We appreciate your attendance here.

With that, we are adjourned.