National Defence Committee on June 2nd, 2023

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to our guests.

Before I ask my questions, I’d like to take a moment to discuss something that seems important to me and that seems important to francophones. The Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs, on which I sit, is currently conducting a lengthy study on women veterans. The study will span 23 meetings. Two weeks ago, this committee decided to stop referring to "femmes vétéranes" and start referring to "vétéranes"—something we’ve been talking about for a long time. This may seem trivial, but in French, the word "vétérane" does greater justice to these members of the armed forces.

From now on, the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs and the Department of Veterans Affairs will use the term "vétérane". In my opinion, this is much more respectful of women. I mention this because I’d like the Standing Committee on National Defence to also use the designation "vétéranes", since Committee members will often use this term in French. The suggestion came from Ms. Sandra Perron. We’re pleased that the Department of Veterans Affairs will now be using this designation, and we hope other departments will too.

Mr. Harris, we all know transition is a crucial time for anyone, man or woman, who has spent several years in the armed forces. The members the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs have often heard is that this transition is very problematic. One of the issues raised was the fact that the Department of National Defence and Veterans Affairs Canada both work in silos, with little or no contact between the two departments. This leads to difficulties and problems in terms of the credibility of these two very important departments.

I’d like you to tell us about what has been done to try to break down these silos, so these departments talk to each other more.

[Steven Harris]

Mr. Chairman, I’d like to thank the member for mentioning that the department has just changed the designation to "vétérane". That’s a very important change.

I’ll ask Mr. Roy to answer your question, because he works with both Veterans Affairs Canada and the Canadian Armed Forces to support veterans in their transition to civilian life.

[Mark Roy, Area Director Central Ontario, Department of Veterans Affairs]

Good morning.

All our transition centres work directly with the Canadian Armed Forces during transition. At each of the military bases, there are employees working for the transition centres. During transition, the Canadian Armed Forces, Veterans Affairs Canada and military family services work together to help veterans and their families. During this time, we work hard to avert any risks that may arise for members of the armed forces.

If the armed forces are in a position to help people before they transition to civilian life, they do so. Members give their approval, and then we can help them. We try to offer them help during the transition period. In some cases, we’ll work with the Canadian Armed Forces to extend the transition period. That may be necessary, for example, if there’s a medical risk, if the member is too ill to undertake the transition, or if the member is at risk of becoming homeless.

As Mr. Harris briefly explained earlier, a series of questions are asked of the Forces member to conduct the risk assessment. In such cases, we work with the Canadian Armed Forces to try to reduce these risks.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Do all members of the military go through the transition centres?

[Mark Roy]

We’re using the new transition program, and we’re trying to see all the military members who are beginning their transition to civilian life. This important change took place in 2019, when we set up the new military-to-civilian transition program. We try to see all members, but it’s not mandatory yet. Some retiring members of the Forces tell us they have everything they need and don’t need any help. In some cases, the transition is smooth, but we do try to work with the majority of members.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Can you tell me how this works from a medical perspective, among other things? We know it’s very difficult to have medical records forwarded for reasons that are sometimes obscure, sometimes for reasons of confidentiality. Is it easier for military personnel to have their medical records forwarded than it used to be?

[Mark Roy]

As Mr. Harris explained, we now live in a digital world. The medical records of members of the Canadian Armed Forces are entirely accessible in electronic format. No matter where military personnel transit or where they move during their career, their medical file follows them. It’s instantaneous. If members go to their doctor on the day of their move, for example, their medical record will already be there.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

The medical record follows them, but does it continue to follow them once they become veterans?

[Steven Harris]

Yes, the medical record does follow military personnel to some extent. It depends on their particular needs and the services they require. If members leave the Canadian Armed Forces and they don’t require the services provided by Veterans Affairs, their medical file doesn’t follow them and it’s not provided to us. VAC intervenes in the process only when veterans express a need. VAC then requests access to their medical records to ensure that the department can meet their needs and support them with the many services it offers.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets.

Ms. Mathyssen, you have six minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you all for being here today.

Ms. Ogilvie, I wanted to ask. The CFMWS workforce comprises lots of military families within that. You said it's about 40%. Is that correct?

What kinds of positions do they fill for the military family positions?

[Laurie Ogilvie]

It's all of the positions. It can go from a clerk at CANEX, which is our retail store, all the way up to an executive within the organization. Through our military spousal employment network, we are one of the biggest employers there. Because of the portability of positions as families move from community to community, we have a footprint in every one of the communities. It allows the military family members to port their pensions and their tenure within the organization.

We have a preferred hiring practice for military families—lifeguards in the pools all the way up to executives.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

In February, quite a few of those employees actually came to Parliament Hill and rallied outside the Prime Minister's Office, because they were talking about those employment standards, and the fact that they're being paid minimum wage. Can you speak to why, as an important part of that, they are not being paid a living wage?

[Laurie Ogilvie]

I can say that this year everybody is being paid a living wage. We're going through a pay equity program right now to ensure that everybody is being paid appropriately. All staff of the non-public funds—and that's through my organization—received a 6.8% pay increase this year to bring the salaries up to the level that is a living wage and is equivalent to other organizations.

Now, I must say that the military family resource centres on each of the bases and wings are not employed by my organization. Those are not-for-profit, provincially incorporated organizations. The employer of record is the volunteer board of directors of the organization. We don't manage what their pay structures are. However, they also all received a 6.8% salary increase, if that's what they would like to employ.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

If they switch provinces—because minimum wages are different, and that level is different—does it stay the same or do they drop down? Is that consistent? Do they maintain whatever the highest wage they had was, or higher?

[Laurie Ogilvie]

It depends on the province. I'm not an expert in this, but part of the pay equity project that's ongoing right now is to make sure all the positions are equitable across the country, based on what the cost of living and the minimum wage standards are in each community.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

When will the current postings you have on your website be changed to show that increase?

[Laurie Ogilvie]

It's now. The increase was applied as of April 1.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

This is for Mr. Harris or Mr. Roy.

I got to sit briefly at the veterans affairs committee. One key issue we were dealing with at the time was the contracting out of services for social workers and case workers for veterans dealing with a number of issues. That transition is part of it, but having that consistent case worker was so key to being able to help specific veterans go through potentially difficult transitions, difficult times and difficult points in their lives.

It's now been about six months since a $570-million contract was awarded to Loblaw for veterans rehabilitation services. In fact, some of the medical health clinicians from Renfrew County wrote an op-ed to the department based on the major problems of that contract.

They said that the Veterans Affairs' “approach fails to understand the complexity of treating military-related trauma and demonstrates a universal lack of understanding of veterans' complex mental-health challenges.” It goes on to say that, “The PCVRS program appears to prioritize administrative processes over client care, being overly focused on timelines and rushing treatments, rather than understanding veterans' unique needs and the importance of a culturally competent approach.” They ended the letter by saying that, “We are not saving taxpayers' money; we're offering less, and lining the pockets of a private company.”

Can you talk about what consultations occurred? Were those frontline service providers who are core to that service provision consulted? What did they have to say at the time?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, you have about 10 seconds to answer that question.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

He can do it in 10 seconds.

[Steven Harris]

I was going to ask my colleague Ms. Hicks to answer, but in the interest of time, our providers were consulted. Veterans were consulted. Our staff were consulted. This is a continuation of what we were doing on a rehabilitation contract to ensure that we have the proper, professional supports in place to help meet veterans' needs. That's the continuation there.

I hope I can get a chance to offer some more as we go forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.

Mrs. Gallant, you have five minutes.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

This is for the person who is most qualified to answer this question.

On Monday, a young veteran and father of three was buried. After serving for decades, including stints with CSOR and JTF 2, he was abandoned by CAF when he needed mental health care.

Special forces must adhere to their oaths of secrecy for life. Why are there no mental health provisions for JTF 2 veterans to access necessary mental health care without breaking the law?