Evidence of meeting #65 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was equipment.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Karen Hogan  Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
Andrew Hayes  Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
Philippe Lagassé  Associate Professor, Carleton University, As an Individual
Anessa Kimball  Professor, Université Laval, As an Individual

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Colleagues, I call this meeting to order.

We're running a little late, but we'll be able to extend the time to 5:45 and divide it into the two hours.

For the first hour, we have, from the Office of the Auditor General, Karen Hogan, the Auditor General; Andrew Hayes, deputy auditor general; and Nicholas Swales, principal.

You are familiar with this committee, so we don't need to do instructions. You've already warned me that you might be a second or two over the five minutes, but nevertheless, at the great discretion of the chair, I'm perfectly prepared to allow that, given that you're the Auditor General.

Thank you.

We look forward to what you have to say.

3:45 p.m.

Karen Hogan Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Thank you. I'll try to speak quickly—and I apologize to the interpreters now—so that I can squeeze it all in.

Mr. Chair, thank you for this opportunity to appear before your committee as part of its study on procurement processes and their impact on the readiness of the Canadian Armed Forces.

I would like to acknowledge that this hearing is taking place on the traditional, unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Joining me today are Andrew Hayes, my deputy auditor general; and Nick Swales, a principal who is really our expert on national defence matters and has done many audits on procurements.

There are a number of themes emerging from our audits linked to defence procurement that I would like to highlight for the committee.

First, I'll speak to delays and scope changes and the impact they have on the timely renewal of fleets. When fleet renewal is delayed, aging aircraft and ships remain in service beyond their planned useful lives or are retired before replacements are operational. Keeping aging aircraft and ships in service also means increased operating and maintenance costs.

In 2021, we audited the national shipbuilding strategy, which was launched in 2010. It calls for the building of different classes of at least 50 large science and defence vessels over some 30 years. Overall, we found that the delivery of many ships had been significantly delayed because of challenges in design and construction.

For example, welding problems were discovered in the offshore fisheries science vessels, problems that required time to investigate and repair. This delayed construction schedules for other vessels, increasing the risk of not having the vessels ready to do what we need when we need to do it.

Our recent audit of the surveillance of Canada's arctic waters, which this committee studied in December 2022, found that delays and their impacts persist. The audit also found risks of gaps in surveillance, patrol and presence capabilities because of aging satellites and patrol aircraft that may also reach the end of their useful lives before replacements are available.

The replacement of Canada's fighter force is another example of delays and their impacts on readiness. Canada bought its CF-18s in the early 1980s, expecting to replace them after about 20 years of service, but this did not happen. In 2016 the government directed National Defence to have enough fighter aircraft available every day to meet the highest NORAD alert level and Canada's NATO commitment at the same time. This meant that National Defence had to increase by 23% the number of fighter aircraft available for operations. To meet the demand, the government purchased used fighter jets from Australia that were about 30 years old and have the same operational limitations as Canada's fleet of CF-18s.

This brings me to the second theme I want to highlight: If you don’t have the people for the use and upkeep of the equipment, the readiness problem remains.

In the case of Canada’s fighter jets, National Defence expected to spend almost $3 billion to buy and operate the Australian aircraft and to extend the life of its fleet. However, it did not have a plan to deal with the shortage of experienced pilots and the CF-18’s declining combat capability. Purchasing additional aircraft was not enough to meet both the NORAD and NATO requirements.

In 2022, as part of our update on past audits, we found that National Defence had increased the number of aircraft and pilots available for operations but not technicians. As National Defence was still implementing its recruitment and retention strategies, some positions had yet to be staffed.

The final theme I want to bring to your attention today is inventory management. We have been raising issues in this area through our financial audit work for some 20 years. We further examined the military’s supply chain in a performance audit in 2020. We found that military units received materiel such as spare parts, uniforms, and rations late 50% of the time. High-priority items required to satisfy critical operational requirements were late even more often, at 60% of the time. These delays, often caused by stock shortages, affected National Defence’s capacity to perform its duties and manage its resources efficiently.

These audits underscore the importance of supplying Canada’s military and renewing fleets in a timely manner to avoid capability gaps that may jeopardize Canada’s ability to meet its domestic and international obligations for science and defence.

Mr. Chair, this concludes my opening remarks. We would be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Madam Auditor General.

Mr. Kelly, you have six minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

Thank you.

In your report of 2021, which you mentioned in your opening statement, you said at paragraph 2.14, “The delivery of many ships was significantly delayed, and further delays could result in several vessels being retired before new vessels are operational.”

Is that still the case? Have steps been taken since your report to rectify that?

3:50 p.m.

Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

We did look on the periphery when we did our work on the surveillance of Arctic waters. In the shipbuilding strategy audit, we noted there were delays and that there was very little wiggle room for further delays to happen.

When we looked at surveillance of Arctic waters, we found that those delays have persisted. In that report, I would actually point you to an exhibit where we show when the useful lives of ships were supposed to end, how they might be extended and when new ones are expected.

There could be a gap in surveillance capabilities and in availability of equipment if something isn't done and if National Defence doesn't address the issues of untimely—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

What about ministerial accountability? We heard from the Parliamentary Budget Officer about the mixed accountability between multiple departments.

Would a single minister make a difference and be a helpful way to better control these projects?

3:50 p.m.

Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

When I look back at all of our work, I don't think we ever found anything in our work that would bubble that up to the top as one of the key risks to address.

I must admit that personally, I'm not too fussed about whether it's one department or many departments that are involved. What is really needed in a procurement process is the right skill set. This isn't about buying boots; you need some specialized expertise—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

Does PSPC possess that specialized skill?

3:50 p.m.

Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

I think they are experts in procurement. That's where you need the combination of defence and the needs...from National Defence.

If you had one entity, you would have to make sure it had all the skills that entity needed and the expertise to make—

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

Does it exist presently?

3:55 p.m.

Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

I think when you look at the combination of the Canadian Armed Forces, National Defence and PSPC, yes, they have the skills. The lack of timely decisions, I think, is rooted in other places.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

Where?

3:55 p.m.

Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

I would point to a few things.

There is really not very good life-cycle planning when it comes to military procurement. The gaps the country is potentially facing didn't sneak up on Canada; you knew that there would be a useful life to a ship or an airplane. Planning ahead for that needs to be done better.

I would then point to the complexity of the procurement processes. It isn't just about buying a good anymore. Many of the procurements are trying to accomplish many things, whether they are about creating an industry, as in the shipbuilding case, or trying to have economic benefits come out of procurement. There is a trade-off when you try to accomplish many things in a procurement.

Finally, I would point to not really having a stable outcome. What should the Canadian Armed Forces look like and what does it need? There needs to be better consensus about that across the government.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

One of your specific recommendations was paragraph 2.46, which said, “Public Services and Procurement Canada should improve risk management tools at the National Shipbuilding Strategy's management level to enable thorough risk analysis, specific, time-bound, and measurable risk mitigation...[and] better monitoring of the implementation of risk mitigation measures”.

The department agreed. Has it implemented any of these recommendations?

3:55 p.m.

Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

I'm going to have to ask Nick if he might want to jump in on that.

We have not followed up further than seeing the detailed action plan that they would have provided to the public accounts committee when it had a hearing.

Figuring out that contracting relationship and agreeing on how to share risks, I think, is something that is essential to speeding up the procurement process. There is a benefit to off-loading some risk, but then that risk needs to be off-loaded if that's the case, not taken back on by the government.

There's merit in trying to refine that and working that out better.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

Is risk aversion maybe born of a lack of expertise at the lower levels of PSPC? Does this contribute to delays?

3:55 p.m.

Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

I'm not sure I would point to risk aversion as being what's contributing to delays. I think it is about moving outcomes and changing priorities and objectives. When you take time to make a decision, technology changes and then you need to revisit it. It's a bit of a cycle.

More timely decision-making and knowing what the intended outcome is would help with mitigating procurement delays. I'm not sure I would link it to risk aversion.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

How do we get more timely decisions?

3:55 p.m.

Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

I think it's about having consensus across the government on what the Canadian Armed Forces should look like and what it needs. That would be a place to start.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Mr. Kelly.

Go ahead, Mr. Sousa.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you for being here today and for recognizing the complexity of these decisions, these procurement processes and the time it takes just to qualify the prospective proponents, especially for the big-ticket items.

I think you inferred that there is obviously a lot of requirement for more personnel. You certainly highlighted delays, and that's why we're having this discussion. It's because we're all concerned about the delays and the ability to be responsive to the needs as they come about. The fighter jets have taken so many years to come to fruition just by making a decision first.

You talked about the delays being a big issue; you talked about personnel being available—or enabled, or having the expertise within those decisions—and then you talked about inventory management and some of the delays in trying to maintain a proper inventory. I presume you're able to audit this stuff effectively, notwithstanding some of these delays. You're obviously recognizing the problems.

What are the solutions? Do you have solutions for the issues that are before us? What do you suggest we do?

3:55 p.m.

Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

I wish I had a crystal ball and I could help with all of the procurement issues, but I would say that procurement—

3:55 p.m.

An hon. member

I can't really hear.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

I can't either.

Can the Conservative side cool it down?

Please continue.

4 p.m.

Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General

Karen Hogan

I would say that you need personnel and you need capacity. There's capacity that's needed on the procurement side. What we mentioned was not forgetting that it's not just about needing procurement capacity; you need to also think about the personnel to use the items that you're buying—so pilots or captains—but then you also need maintenance and technicians. That is part of what I would call planning for the life cycle of an item that you purchase.

I believe that having consensus on what the Canadian Armed Forces needs and then staying on that.... When you talk about the fighter jets, there were changes in what was needed, and further commitments were made. Originally, the commitment was about meeting a certain spend threshold, and then it was about meeting NATO and NORAD's highest alerts, so all of that adds to the capacity that's needed.

I tend to wonder whether or not there is a sense of urgency in Canada to equip our military and our troops properly. Maybe that sense of urgency is something that needs to be brought into the mix.