Evidence of meeting #65 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was equipment.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Prof. Anessa Kimball
Okay, I have two seconds. The first thing is that on the contracts themselves there needs to be a much greater follow-up in terms of how we restrain the two parties and ensure that there is actually good faith with respect to overriding the limits, the financial limits, of the contracts. That could be done better, shared better.
Finally, one of the most important things is essentially that in the early parts of the contract there needs to be much more development, much more focus in terms of the timeline for the project. That is where those overages will occur due to uncertainties about technological development.
Thank you very much for your attention.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Ms. Kimball, the Prime Minister has told NATO that he has no intention of having Canada allocate 2% of GDP on defence. It simply doesn't translate into votes.
Has the sentiment of Canadians changed since Putin began his attack on Ukraine?
Prof. Anessa Kimball
I think it's very clear that 2% was an important guideline and focal target when we were talking about enlarging the alliance, and 2% has its use, but 2% in terms of thinking about how Canada allocates and what Canada gets out of that allocation is simply not very pragmatic.
Yes, I think it's important that this be a guideline, but in terms of what Canada can contribute, it does a lot without reaching 2%. Frankly, at 1.4%, the other essential thing is this is a value that is linked to the economic size. When you look around, Canada has a large economy, so for us to move that 2% in any way incurs much more spending.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
We have larger economies who far exceed the 2%.
What action has the government taken, Dr. Kimball, to avoid having to wait in line as a consequence of NATO members' critical defence needs in eastern Europe?
Prof. Anessa Kimball
In terms of waiting in line, I'm not sure if you mean waiting in line to get procurement, to procure the types of assets that—
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
To procure the assets that several of the other NATO countries are trying to procure at the same time for use in Ukraine.
Prof. Anessa Kimball
Canada has tied its own hands with its procurement system in the sense that there are a lot of stakeholders who make the process very slow. If you look at, for example, the Polish procurement system and the improvements in the American procurement system, it makes it so that once you've had competitive processes in the beginning, you can keep things rolling and the finances coming in as long as the project is making progress.
Right now, essentially, there are a lot of returns in the process, which bring in those delays.
When it comes to the equipment itself, I think it's very clear that Canada has to recognize it simply doesn't have security threats that are as acute as some of the European partners have. The United States and other countries are going to send those military resources to those countries first.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Thank you.
Dr. Lagassé, 3-D printing seems to be the future and is transformational with respect to supply and procurement. Do you see Canada taking this view and implementing any aspects of this?
Associate Professor, Carleton University, As an Individual
At this stage, I would consider that as still experimental from a defence procurement point of view. It may be introduced when it comes to certain types of spare parts or other things of that nature. Really, at the end of the day, it's for industry to demonstrate that it can supply things more quickly and still meet the requirements.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Dr. Lagassé, could we make the process faster and more efficient by reducing the number of departments and agencies involved in procurement?
Associate Professor, Carleton University, As an Individual
I don't believe that's the key component, and if we were to move to a single agency now, while we're trying to recapitalize the force, that would likely be disastrous, to be quite frank.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Okay. Dr. Lagassé, would getting DND and CAF to reduce the number of specifications, or modifications, they're seeking in procurement be an effective means of speeding up delivery?
Associate Professor, Carleton University, As an Individual
Yes, if we were to try to reduce the amount of Canadianization that we do for equipment, that would speed things up.
I will note, however, that one of the reasons we Canadianize is that we buy so rarely that we try to put everything we can within a platform, so we put that onus on ourselves. If we were to say, as a matter of course, that we would buy more often, but we would buy simpler, there again—and this is what I was hinting at—it's having to take risks.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
With respect to industrial and technological benefits policy, are the primary costs and benefits worth the effort?
Associate Professor, Carleton University, As an Individual
I think, as the Auditor General pointed out, this ultimately comes down to trade-offs in society. Do you want to use defence dollars squarely to equip your military, or do you see it as a jobs program as well? I think it's fair to say we tend to see it as both.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Has the government paid sufficient attention to the world view about the most appropriate military force structure since it came into power in 2015?
Associate Professor, Carleton University, As an Individual
It did a significant review as part of the 2017 defence policy. The department and the CAF offered the government various views. As a number of people have written, this is really building on the CFDS policy of 2008.
On the fundamentals, we're generally in agreement. The question becomes whether we are funding adequately for that. That's where I would have concerns.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Does it explain some of Canada's current procurement troubles?
Associate Professor, Carleton University, As an Individual
Absolutely. If you try to have a defence policy that creates a force that requires 2% of the GDP to fund it adequately and you only have 1.5% of GDP, you're going to run into structural deficits around the creation of that capability.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Does Canada's military have the capabilities to respond to a conflict abroad at any given moment?
Associate Professor, Carleton University, As an Individual
It depends on the manner in which we can respond. It would really be more a case of putting up a flag as part of a coalition in some cases. In other cases, we might be able to commit more. It really depends on the nature of the conflict and the crisis.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
I'm sorry, Cheryl. That's it. I was trying to get your attention.
We'll go to Madam Lambropoulos for six minutes, please.
Liberal
Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC
Thank you, Chair.
I'd like to begin by thanking our witnesses for being here to answer some more questions.
I'm going to start with Mr. Lagassé. You spoke a bit about Canada's ability to procure some things better domestically than others, about how some industries are stronger than others within the country, and that we would be better off from a defence perspective procuring certain things outside.
It's been brought to our attention, or at least to mine, that even with things we are strong in and where our industries are world-renowned, we don't necessarily give top priority to our own companies.
I'm wondering if you think there's any way to increase domestic capacity, at least by focusing on the areas we do have strengths in, and figure out a way to prioritize our own when we are able to. Could you speak to that in any way and go into a little more depth?