National Defence Committee on June 20th, 2023

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay.

When Justice Arbour came to the committee, she was very concerned and frustrated that it didn't look like any progress would be made on the duty to report, for example. There's a working group. The chief of the defence staff himself said, “I've signed off on these things”. That hasn't been moved forward on.

In terms of that externality and that pressure that I guess you're supposed to put on the ministry, on the department, were you given any access to the deliberations internally on, for example, what's happening on the duty to report?

[Jocelyne Therrien]

I keep asking on a regular basis what's going on, where this is and what the delay is. Yes, there's a briefing note to discuss the risks. There's a lot of discussion about the risks, so that takes a certain amount of time. When you change a major policy, that one in particular—

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Is that why it wasn't included in your report? Is it because you haven't got there yet?

[Jocelyne Therrien]

It's just not there, but that one is truly imminent.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

It's truly imminent.

To be perfectly honest, it's been called for for a very long time.

[Jocelyne Therrien]

Yes, since 2018. The Auditor General was the first one to bring it up. Back then—

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Do you know what the delay could possibly be, other than the fact that it seems so significant? Is there any other delay that you know of or you've been made aware of?

[Jocelyne Therrien]

There's a lot of consultation that takes place in that organization, and it leads to delays. The conversation seems to just go on and on. That's why the framework is important, because it will say, “We have to move on faster on these than what's happening.”

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

You believe wholeheartedly that by the time you are ready for that second update, it will be ready.

[Jocelyne Therrien]

I do.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay.

[Jocelyne Therrien]

I'm confident.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay, so you've seen that...? Okay. All right.

In terms of that transparency, there was a story in the Ottawa Citizen about an access to information request. Information was not shared by the military, yet a reporter was given access to information. It almost seemed like there was a disconnect between the department and what was being shared by an external source in the form of an ATIP.

In terms of your externality and that transparency, are there any concerns around that, in what you're being allowed access to within that—

[Jocelyne Therrien]

Within the department?

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Yes.

[Jocelyne Therrien]

I truly feel that whatever I ask for, I am getting. I have assistance from somebody who knows the department inside and out, and she's very good at seeking information on my behalf.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.

Colleagues, we've made some decent time, so instead of a three-minute round, I think we'll go to four minutes. It will go four, four, two, two, four, four.

Mr. Bezan, you have four minutes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madame Therrien, thank you for taking on this role. Thank you for the work you did in the Auditor General's office before that.

To be clear, are you staffed at all and able to do your job? How many people are assigned to you?

[Jocelyne Therrien]

I have two.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Are they out of the Department of National Defence?

[Jocelyne Therrien]

No, my EA is within what is called the “corporate secretariat” which is sort of a neutral knob in between DND and the CAF. The person who is helping me with the actual work was in internal audit, and she assisted Madam Arbour and Madam Deschamps. That's why she was the perfect choice for this.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I think you said you reported it directly to the minister. Did the minister's office peruse this report at all, before it was released publicly, or were you able to release it publicly without them putting any edits—

[Jocelyne Therrien]

I submitted it to her. At one point, she reviewed it and it became public. She did not change anything or ask for any changes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Perfect.

You mentioned the Deschamps report.

Are you following any of those recommendations through, in order to see whether or not they came to fruition? We know Minister Anand's predecessor let it collect dust for several years without ever looking at it.

[Jocelyne Therrien]

Within my scope, I have the Arbour report. I am including anything going back to...starting from Deschamps...that talks about sexual misconduct.