National Defence Committee on Sept. 19th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We'll call this meeting to order.

We have our friends from Global Affairs and DND here to brief us on what's going on in eastern Europe. We look forward to what you have to say. I understand there's going to be one five-minute statement from whomever, and then it'll be open to the members for the balance of the hour and a half to ask questions. Thereafter, colleagues, we're going to go in camera to discuss committee business and we'll go from there.

With that, I'll call on Major-General Prévost.

Welcome. It's good to see you in person.

[Major-General Paul Prévost, Director of Staff, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence]

It's good to see you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks for having us again.

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, I am Major-General Paul Prévost, and I have met with you a number of times. Again, I'm the director of staff of the Canadian Armed Forces strategic joint staff. With me today are Ty Curran, deputy director general, international security policy at the Department of National Defence, as well as my colleagues from the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, Kati Csaba and Alison Grant.

We are honoured to appear before you today to provide an update on Operation Unifier and the situation in Ukraine.

The Canadian Armed Forces have a history of providing military support to Ukraine. Following Russia's invasion of Crimea in 2014, Canada launched Operation Unifier in response to requests from Ukraine for help deterring Russian aggression and remaining free, sovereign, secure and stable.

Through various iterations of Operation Unifier, the Canadian Armed Forces have provided the security forces of Ukraine with specialized military training to support their professionalization and to assist them in aligning with NATO standards and principles. Since the inception of Operation Unifier, the Canadian Armed Forces have trained over 38,000 members of the security forces—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Major-General Prévost, can we slow it down a bit? That would be helpful because the translators are trying to keep up with you.

[MGen Paul Prévost]

We can do that, for sure, Mr. Chair. It's my French coming out. I'm sorry about that.

Since the inception of Operation Unifier, the Canadian Armed Forces have trained more than 38,000 members of Ukraine's security forces in Ukraine or in third countries.

Since the start of the Russian invasion, Canada has contributed nearly $2 billion in military assistance to Ukraine. Canada's contribution includes 39 armoured combat support vehicles, eight Leopard 2 main battle tanks, one armoured recovery vehicle, a surface-to-air missile system, M777 howitzers and associated ammunition, 200 armoured vehicles, winter clothing and equipment, small arms, demining equipment, high-resolution drone cameras, and satellite imagery.

The Canadian Armed Forces has also provided, and continues to provide, the security forces of Ukraine with recruit training at Camp Lydd in the U.K., combat medic training, armoured training, sapper training, technical training on the M777 howitzer and leadership training. Over 4,600 members of the security forces of Ukraine have been trained through those initiatives since the spring of 2022.

Through our air task force in Prestwick, in the U.K., the RCAF has flown over 450 air missions, transporting over 12 million pounds of military donations from our allies and partners. It is a significant contribution to ensure a constant flow of supplies to the security forces of Ukraine.

Also, at the request of the Ukrainian Ministry of Defence, the Canadian Armed Forces has been bolstering Ukraine's cyber-defence capabilities since early 2022. Notably, this support includes the provision of 24-7 cybersecurity expertise and of cyber-threat intelligence.

All these contributions and those of our allies and partners are coordinated through the security assistance group for Ukraine, or the SAG-U, located in Wiesbaden, Germany. Canada plays a significant and integral role in its headquarters, namely with the provision of a Canadian team, led by a Canadian general, coordinating all the training for all allies.

The support from Canada, from our allies and from our international partners is critical in assisting Ukraine in this very difficult and intense campaign. The ongoing Ukrainian counteroffensive continues to make tactical progress in the Zaporizhzhia region.

Ukraine has demonstrated an impressive resolve over the last 572 days since the invasion started in 2022. There is no denying that Russia is feeling the effects of sustained combat operations. Russia is likely to conduct another partial military mobilization in the next three to six months, with the intent of amassing enough troops to launch a renewed offensive in Ukraine. However, it is very likely that the newly mobilized troops will be ill-equipped and poorly trained.

In its effort to fracture Ukraine's civilian and military resilience, Russia will continue to target Ukrainian grain storage and port infrastructure facilities with drones and missile strikes to prevent the export of Ukrainian agricultural products. Over the coming winter, Russia is also likely to resume its strike campaign against the Ukrainian power grid, which greatly affects the Ukrainian population.

Russia will continue to look at challenging western allies in our collective commitment to Ukraine. This is why it's important that the defence team and the rest of our NATO allies remain focused.

I will end my remarks here. I look forward to answering your questions on this.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Bezan, you have six minutes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thanks to our witnesses for being here.

As Conservatives, we support you guys 100% in what you're doing to support Ukraine. As we all know, Operation Unifier and the first donations of military equipment happened under the previous Conservative government. It's something I'm very proud of. As the official opposition, the Conservative Party has supported the government in every effort it has made in supporting Ukraine in this brutal war against the Russian invaders. We will continue to do so. In fact, we've asked the government to do more.

One thing we've been asking for is to provide more armoured vehicles to Ukraine. On a recent trip to Ukraine, Pat and I heard directly from both the Office of the President and the Ministry of Defence that they love the Leopard tanks. They love the Senators that we provided and would love to get more. They also know that things like LAVs and M113s—tracked LAVs—which have been well used in Ukraine, were donated by other countries.

We are in the process of decommissioning hundreds of pieces of older stock that is considered surplus and worn out. I know that Armatec, in London, has made a proposal to the Government of Canada to refit those vehicles and send them to Ukraine. They can do eight per month. The Australians and the Americans have said they would partner with us on this if Canada would lead. They have surplus vehicles as well, which Armatec could rearm, retool and put in the fight.

Where are we, as the Government of Canada and the Canadian Armed Forces, in terms of donating these surplus decommissioned vehicles to Armatec and ultimately to Ukraine?

[MGen Paul Prévost]

Mr. Bezan, I'll turn to Ty here, who's the expert on donations in the Department of National Defence.

[Ty Curran, Deputy Director General, International Security, Department of National Defence]

Chair, it's a pleasure to be here. I'm Ty Curran, deputy director general for international security policy.

The process by which we identify donations that we're providing to Ukraine is relatively straightforward. At its heart are items that Ukraine has asked us for. We get that through a number of different methods, particularly through the Ukraine Defense Contact Group, which is meeting today in Ramstein, Germany. As well, we get that directly from the ambassador and Ukrainians who have reached out to us.

We've worked very hard to ensure we're meeting those priorities by sending armoured vehicles, by sending tanks and by sending some of the other items the general mentioned. We have a $500-million funding envelope that's available in this fiscal year to help support Ukraine.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Has that been allocated, or is it still available for other donations?

[Ty Curran]

Parts of it have been allocated. You would have seen over the weekend that the minister made an announcement about our support for an air defence partnership. Some of that money came out of that allocation, but there are funds that remain in that space, and we continue to look at ways we can support Ukraine.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

In previous tranches of money that have been earmarked for supporting Ukraine, there was the NASAMS air defence missile system we were purchasing from the United States. Has that been delivered?

[Ty Curran]

No, it has not.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

When will Ukrainians actually get that piece of kit, which we promised months ago?

[Ty Curran]

We're working with the United States to produce this piece of equipment. We're hoping that's going to be available soon, but there is a production timeline that goes along with that.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Are you guys tracking that to make sure it is delivered in real time, as much as possible?

[Ty Curran]

Absolutely. Part of the challenge has been the availability of systems of that nature, just the global availability of that type of equipment. We're working very hard to support that, given that air defence is the number one priority for the Ukrainians.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

About the Leopard 2 tanks we've sent, are they all still in operation or have any of them been destroyed in battle?

[MGen Paul Prévost]

We had received reports in the past that maybe one tank had been destroyed. Now I'm getting more reporting that this is not the case. We're still looking into it. There are more than our Leopard 2 tanks in theatre, so we're digging into that. We got early reports this week that it might not have been one of our eight tanks that was destroyed, so we're looking into—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Under Operation Unifier, we sent over a number of our Canadian soldiers to help train Ukrainians on our Leopard 2s. That work is completed. Have those soldiers come home, or have they been tasked with other duties in Operation Unifier or under NATO while they're stationed in Europe?

[MGen Paul Prévost]

Mr. Chair, again it's a developing story here. Recently in discussions with Poland there was no demand signal for our troops to train on Leopard 2. Lately, a couple of weeks ago, we were asked again to throw another course together. We have 24 members there conducting what we think is going to be maybe the last serial of Leopard 2 training. If more is asked of us, we'll be ready to answer again.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I can tell you that when we were there as a committee, it was a sobering experience to see our troops training Ukrainian recruits. I was last in Ukraine a number of years ago, during Operation Unifier, when we as a committee went to Yavoriv, where we were training Ukrainians along with the Americans and the Brits. We were training experienced soldiers. Now we're training green recruits.

To all of our forces working in Operation Unifier, as well as all those working in NATO, including those who are serving in the brigade in Latvia at EFP NATO just outside Riga at Adazi, I just want to say thank you for your service. Thank you for standing up for Ukraine. Thank you for standing against the Russian aggression we're experiencing, not just in Ukraine but right across the NATO eastern flank and our Arctic.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I didn't hear, but maybe I should have heard, an answer on Armatec.

[Ty Curran]

We are tracking quite closely a number of different inputs from industry that have made recommendations about different proposals. Ultimately, that's a decision we pass up to policy-makers, and then we try to act. The challenge, of course, around any of the donations that come out of the CAF inventory, which is involved with that as well, is balancing out the operational requirements for the CAF, particularly as we do things like Operation Reassurance and flow forces into Latvia.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Fisher, you have six minutes.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and welcome back to all the members of the committee. It's been a few months.

Major-General, thank you for being here. Thank you to your team for being here. Thank you for your service to our country.

You had only a five-minute opening. I almost wish you had 20 or 25 minutes so you'd be able to really give us a feel for what's going on there.

You talked about how the Russians are looking to remobilize again. It feels like it was just yesterday they did that. I can recall having this fear that it was going to be very significant, much like the start of the war, when we thought it could be over very quickly. Then, of course, the resilience of the Ukrainians was something the world took notice of.

I'm wondering if you could describe quickly what that next remobilization looks like for Russia. Will it be 10,000 troops? Are they looking for 250,000 troops? Was the last one considered successful or was it considered a bit of a flop? As you'll recall, when we met a year ago, this war, this unjust war, was in the news every day. We saw it. It was top of mind for all of our allies and in Canada. Now we don't hear about it nearly as much.

Maybe you could give us your thoughts on the first remobilization by Russia—I think they entered into some conscription and things like that—whether that was successful, and what the new one might look like. Is that a regular thing? Is it something that's traditionally done, continually remobilizing and putting a call out for more soldiers?