National Defence Committee on Sept. 19th, 2023

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

There are no specific lessons, then, that you want to report to this committee right now, observations that we can emulate.

[Ty Curran]

Mr. Chair, maybe one very important lesson, one of the things that I think this conflict has shown us, is the importance of logistics and mobility. We probably fell out of practice of moving large bits of equipment, both across the ocean and internally in the European theatre. We've worked very closely with the European Union as well to ensure that things like bridges, railheads and that sort of thing are available for transport.

I think it's been a practical element of the conflict—in addition to a number of other things—that has forced us to relook at that. I think we will be better prepared for the next conflict because of that.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you very much.

For our foreign affairs officials, reportedly the Wagner Group has dissipated in Russia. How does this development impact the effectiveness of the Russian military in the Ukraine conflict?

[Alison Grant]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm happy to answer that question.

It's hard to know exactly. The Wagner organization was used by the Russian army in Ukraine, but not to a very large extent. From our understanding, they were used in the Bakhmut area in particular to launch the offensive there, but then pulled out. We do not—this is broadly speaking—expect that developments with the Wagner Group will have a significant effect on the Russian effort.

That answers directly that question. If there are others on Wagner, I'm happy to also answer those.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Okay.

While everyone is saying that we need to increase financing to the military, in the news recently there's been an announcement of forthcoming cuts to the military. How are we going to increase our spending allocation to a minimum of 2% if we're already cutting back funding to the military?

[Ty Curran]

Mr. Chair, thanks for the question.

As we look at the fiscal reallocation, defence is a big portion of the federal budget and, as a result, we need to play a role in that. I think we're also looking at the same time at the defence policy update and looking for that to come to fruition in the near future. I think we have a fiscal reality that the government has asked us to look at—that defence needs to play a role—but, similarly, the government has also noted the requirement for an update to our defence policy, and we're continuing to work on that.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Quite apart from our area of operations where our troops are, there are the surrounding countries almost adjacent to Ukraine. Very close is Romania, for example. Are we doing anything for those countries to help augment their defences against this impending force?

[MGen Paul Prévost]

Mr. Chair, thanks for the question.

In Romania, a battle group will be stood up as well. It's one of the four countries, I believe, that will have a brigade like the one we're mounting now in Latvia.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Is there Canadian contribution?

[MGen Paul Prévost]

There is no Canadian contribution to that. Again, NATO is an alliance, so right now we're going through force generation conferences to figure out which allies will be assigned to which battle groups. We have our partners, and Romania will have their partners.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Gallant.

Mrs. Lalonde, welcome to the committee.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

This is my first time attending this committee as parliamentary secretary, and I would like to begin by thanking the women and men who serve Canada here at home and around the world.

I'll start by saying thanks to everyone in our military for their great service. Last Friday was our Military Family Appreciation Day, and these are the unsung heroes of our CAF members. I want to start by saying thank you for all your service.

Major-General Prévost, you mentioned that there was a change in the nature of the conflict. As we are looking over the past few months, we've seen Ukraine utilizing drones to strike at targets within Russia. What do you see as driving this change in tactics and what are the potential upsides and risks in these kinds of attacks from a Ukrainian perspective?

[MGen Paul Prévost]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the member for her questions.

One of the reasons, regarding the changes to this, is that Ukraine is obviously trying to impede Russia's ability to continue to sustain that conflict. Much as Russia is trying to do this in Ukraine by attacking lines of communication where the military aid is actually transiting through, Ukraine is trying to do that. We call that a deep battle, trying to keep Russian reinforcements from moving into Ukraine. That's the reason it's moved into that space now. We're obviously watching this carefully. There's always the risk of lateral escalation with these actions, but Ukraine is at the point now that they have to stop Russia's actions further down than just along the front line where they did initially.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you very much. I'll just say that we also have to thank the Ukrainian army for their efforts in this war.

In terms of Operation Unifier, how has the nature of Ukraine's needs changed? What type of training is currently more in demand, and what does this tell us about the state of the conflict, if I may ask, Major-General?

[MGen Paul Prévost]

Mr. Chair, that's a very good question.

Just as the conflict has changed, the nature of the training has changed as well on our side. Obviously, one of our biggest contributions initially was the training for the recruits in the U.K. Operation Interflex, which I think you visited, and then as Canada started to contribute specific capabilities like the howitzer, for instance, we started training the troops on the equipment that we had donated. This is how it's changed. Some of the things we'll probably continue, like having the medical technicians or medic training we're doing.

One thing I'll mention, though, is that we tend to train the trainer. When we start in a space, we initially train the soldier. That's how Unifier has grown over time. We've moved, along the way, to training the trainer as well, and the good news about this is that now Ukraine has exceeded the coalition's capacity to train their own recruits. So right now there are more recruits being trained in Ukraine by Ukrainians than by all other coalition members together. This is, I think, what Canada does best: train young folks but also train the trainers.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you. This is actually very nice news.

If I have a bit more time, how is Canada—and I think you somewhat answered but I'm just going to ask more specifically—leveraging the expertise of the members of our Canadian Armed Forces to best assist in the training of the Ukrainian armed forces? I think you said how, but I will let you finish.

[MGen Paul Prévost]

Thank you again for the question.

I've talked already about training the trainers in spaces we're moving into. I think you've potentially noticed that in Latvia. There are also places where we start training more leadership. We're starting to do more collective training rather than just recruits. We're kind of going up the value chain. As Ukrainians are picking up their own needs at the lower levels, we're starting to go up the value chain in terms of the training we dispense.

My colleague from Global Affairs talked about security assurances over the long term. These will probably also change the nature of our longer-term contributions. We are looking at that for the future, but right now, what you've seen is what we've provided. That's just evolving a bit into the value chain of the training that we provide.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

It's Ms. Mathyssen and then Mr. Bezan for five minutes.

Unless my Liberal colleagues have any wild objections, I'll take the final five minutes. Is that okay? Thank you.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Building on a number of questions—certainly Mr. Sousa's question or commentary—I will say that we did see remarkable things from our own Canadian troops and the training of those Ukrainians. It was quite moving, and that, of course, has had an emotional impact on those troops. Could you talk about the combination of a few things, including the supports we're providing to our own troops in terms of the emotional mental health stresses that they are dealing with because of that? In addition, we talked earlier about how, while they are incredibly motivated and excited to do this work and so proud to do this work, it takes a toll in terms of the reconstitution order and the numbers. There is also how all that is impacting our folks within DND centrally here.

So there is a combination of that stress and how we're dealing with that in terms of mental health programs specifically in this, but also for folks at home.

[MGen Paul Prévost]

I'll start, and then I'll maybe turn to Global Affairs to talk about mental health if they wish to.

This is the first time I've heard about it in this form, and there is lots going on in the mental health portion. In terms of our own troops, this is something we've learned about over the years—resilience ahead of a deployment. During deployments, we've also heard some of the comments here.

In the initial part of the conflict, when it started, some of our troops who had trained Ukrainians started to try to get in contact with the soldiers over there and some of them were not answering, so we have to be educating our troops about that. There's the mental health portion that we monitor ahead of a deployment, during a deployment and when they come back to their families as well. It's a constant conversation about the mental resilience of our troops there.

In terms of the mental health and health in general of Ukrainians, I know that's not necessarily the nature of the question, but I want to see if Kati has something to say here.

[Kati Csaba]

Sure.

To add to that, certainly it doesn't cover Canadian troops, but we have also been providing mental health support to our locally employed staff at the embassy in Kyiv, who have been going through their own traumas. I know it doesn't answer your question directly, but we are providing direct support to Ukraine for the mental health of Ukrainians in various ways, including women and girls who have been affected by sexual and gender-based violence.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

If there's more you can add to that as part of this report, to report back, that would be great.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We'll go to Mr. Bezan for five minutes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to follow up on some of the comments that I've made and, I guess, challenge General Prévost a bit on Latvia and them being prepared to accept our troops. From when this committee was over in Latvia in 2017 to visiting Camp Adazi this time around, the amount of infrastructure that has been built up there to support Canada and our allies is amazing. Latvia has been a very gracious and charitable host. They love the Canadians and the job we're doing there. To suggest that we aren't going to go up to the brigade level until the infrastructure is there I think is a bit of a cop-out when you look at.... When we first went there, we were all in tents and happy to be there. We witnessed them levelling ground quickly to put more barracks up, but in the interim, if we need to put our guys in tents, I know they'll be happy to stay out there, as cold and ugly as it is during the wintertime. There's a job to be done and a border to protect, and the eastern flank is at risk.

When we were visiting our American colleagues in Poland, after several years they're still working out of temporary facilities, while the Latvians built the nicest fitness centre I've ever seen on a military base in my life. It's gorgeous. I want to thank the Latvians for being such great hosts to Canada. We'll continue to do what needs to be done and get there quickly, rather than later.

The other thing that was touched on was about our defence expenditures. In the CANFORGENS, there was a memo that came out on September 6 from Deputy Minister Bill Matthews and CDS General Wayne Eyre. It says:

As one of the largest federal departments, National Defence has an important role to play in effective and efficient government operations. Early efforts are now underway across the Defence Team to address our part in this initiative by developing spending reduction options.

Are these reductions going to impact our ability to support Ukraine and to support our allies in NATO, and, of course, to continue to recruit and retain our forces so that we can take care of things at home as required?

[MGen Paul Prévost]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll answer for sure the first part and a bit of the second part, and we'll see if Ty has something else to add.

On the infrastructure, our army and even our air force members are always happy to live in tents, and we will do so if there's nothing else to live in. As we mount the brigade over there, I think the critical infrastructure.... We need to have a combat-capable brigade, which, in order to do deterrence, we need to exercise. We need to show Russia on the other side that we're ready to jump in. The critical infrastructure we're looking for here is a training range and training infrastructure, which is not solved for now.

If headquarters are not there, we'll continue to operate out of temporary shelters, as we did in 2017. We're happy to do that. I think the critical piece is how we create the link between all the bases and the training range they're looking at right now, how we bring our equipment, how we bring our tanks to the field, how we bring our ammo to the field and how we train together with the Latvians. Latvians are amazing partners and we're discussing daily with them in theatre. We're happy with the way it's going, but there are some pieces of the infrastructure that will be critical for that brigade to be combat-capable.

A tent is just fine with us. It's just a matter of how we're going to train.