National Defence Committee on Sept. 21st, 2023

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Obviously this is something that will continue to evolve and change. We have to be nimble in that way. I appreciate that, absolutely. Just this year, Canada participated alongside India in Exercise Sea Dragon. Will we also re-evaluate these future types of exercises?

[MGen Greg Smith]

Mr. Chair, I'll just reiterate what I think my Global Affairs Canada colleague said very well: India is a major player in the region, obviously. There's an Indo-Pacific strategy, so we should of course expect to do bilateral engagements with them and be involved.

We're assessing all this right now. Obviously, this is a “this week” situation. We're reassessing it. There is a problem, but we do need to continue to talk. We do need to continue to engage with their military, but it's an active analysis with our Global Affairs Canada colleagues.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

General Prévost, you'll remember that on Tuesday I had asked about the summit of the BRICS nations that came together in August. Could you, or perhaps the witnesses overall, provide an Indo-Pacific side on that emerging summit? We were talking about the Ukrainian-Russian impacts. However, as things have changed, how will we move forward in terms of reaction to that?

[Peter Lundy]

Thank you for the question.

In foreign policy terms, Canada certainly monitors the deliberations and outcomes in all sorts of international forums, including what recently took place at the BRICS, because it has an impact, obviously, on Canadian interests, but I don't have any particular assessment to share with the committee on the outcomes of those discussions. I mean, we watch as an external party that has an interest in a global sense.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

There were a lot of conversations, of course, about the Indo-Pacific strategy and how important that is and how we stick to it. I myself am concerned that it doesn't necessarily take a human rights-based approach as we are moving forward. Could you respond to that from a human rights-based lens in terms of specifically looking at how we move forward in this world in which we find ourselves?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have 15 seconds or less.

[Peter Lundy]

Yes. I can touch on that.

Within the strategy itself, there was significant funding for Canada's international assistance, which certainly has a human rights-based approach in its implementation. This is always “in addition to”; it's not just the new funded initiatives but the regular work that Canada's network of missions is doing across the region, where they are very forward-leaning on human rights issues in working through local and international organizations.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen

Colleagues, if we're very disciplined, we can get through a full round of 25 minutes.

Mr. Bezan, you have five minutes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to our witnesses for being here.

We just learned earlier this month, and there's more information coming out, about former Canadian fighter pilots training fighter pilots in China for the People's Liberation Army air force. How concerned is the Canadian Armed Forces that they have former pilots—the three now named are Paul Umrysh, Craig Sharp and David Monk—all in China working with the People's Liberation Army?

[MGen Paul Prévost]

We're very concerned. We're very concerned about this. I think our chief of defence spoke publicly about this in an interview. Obviously, this whole issue is under criminal investigation by the RCMP. You've shared the names of the individuals. I can't go any further into where that's going to lead.

Now, as a military organization, we're very concerned—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

How do the National Defence Act, the non-disclosure agreements that I'm assuming these pilots would have signed when they were working for the Royal Canadian Air Force and the Security of Information Act, SOIA, come to bear on them? We hear that Australia has moved ahead with tightening up and increasing the penalties under their own defence act and other security legislation, taking it up to 20 years in prison for those breaches, because there are also Australians who are implicated here as well.

How can Canada and our Five Eyes partners do more to prevent those who are just chasing the buck and not thinking about our national security?

[MGen Paul Prévost]

We're not only looking at that; we're also acting on it. We're looking at how we're tightening in defence to make sure that when our members leave the organization, they understand that what they've learned—their skills, the information they got—is to remain secret. The skills we gave them and the information that we entrusted them with to defend Canadians stays secret.

We're making sure that we're tightening it down to make sure that they understand that point when they leave. The laws are right now covering that. We're looking at how we're going to tighten that through the SOIA in the future as well.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Has the Canadian Armed Forces asked or demanded that they cease and desist in their activities and return to Canada?

[MGen Paul Prévost]

Publicly, we've told them to stop this. Whatever they're doing, we've told them that. The rest of it is now under investigation. As to where that will lead, we'll leave it to the RCMP.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Okay.

Earlier there were comments around how Canada can do more in co-operation. We talked about the ASEAN nations and how we're now part of ADMM-Plus. Has the Government of Canada taken steps to become more integrated into the quadrilateral security dialogue, given the importance of the role that this organization is now starting to play in the overall security conversations that are taking place, especially with the provocative actions of the PRC?

[MGen Greg Smith]

I'm not an expert on the quad, but I can say that the Canadian Armed Forces and indeed the IPS dictate ASEAN centrality. That's the organization we're working with.

The fact that we've gotten into ADMM-Plus and some expert working groups is a good step forward, and now, to become the strategic partner, ASEAN is the one we're working with. As I described earlier, it's not NATO, but it is an organization we can work with. We're kind of rising up in the hierarchy. I think it's actually a very good-news story of how we're progressing because of the IPS.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I can tell you that when this committee was in Europe last month, we did hear from NATO allies that they do see the Pacific region and the Indo-Pacific as part of their overall security concerns, because two NATO members have Pacific coastlines, us and the United States. There is an interest there from a NATO perspective.

How can we more closely incorporate some of that skill set and command and control that we have within NATO to enhance our security presence in the Indo-Pacific region?

[MGen Greg Smith]

That's an expansive question. The strategic concept of NATO 2030 is what NATO is currently working on. It includes China as a presence in there. We have the United States, Canada and indeed France, with some two million square kilometres of water space or whatever the proper term is for that within the Pacific as well. We have a lot of allies that are very interested in it. Working with them in NATO and working with them in Europe I think helps us work within that region as well, if we need to work together.

The only other thing I would add is that equally it's reaching out to partners—NATO is—including Japan, Korea, Australia and New Zealand. We are building that bigger relationship and that bigger partnership that brings together, to a degree, both NATO and the Indo-Pacific.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Bezan.

Mr. Fisher, you have five minutes.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here. As always, thank you for your service to our country.

Major-General Smith, you were talking about pillars. The pillar that I was interested in was the “active and engaged partner” pillar. How did our engagement and our activity within this region change once we released our strategy in November 2022? You used the phrase “broaden and deepen”. I think you said we moved from two warships to three warships.

Perhaps you could just fill us in a little bit on that pillar and how Canada is an active and engaged partner.

[MGen Greg Smith]

I think each of the five pillars increases our presence there. There's the fact that we're becoming more engaged and that people like me and my colleagues actually have to go into the region and collaborate. There's the fact that we're going to have four different permanent locations in some of the capitals in the region. We'll continue with that. We've increased the number of defence attachés in the region.

It's about being there. It's about being there and being at the meetings so that when they think about security in the region, there's a Canadian in the room. That has helped in all of that. We're doing women, peace and security activities with allies in the region. It has us in the room, has us thinking about it and has us being seen as experts in that region. I think each one of those really helps us and helps that region think about Canada.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you for that. That's very good to hear.

You also said that you're seeking other opportunities with our allies. Can you maybe touch base on what that might look like?

[MGen Greg Smith]

That's a great question.

We are working all the time with the allies. Indeed, one of my jobs as a person who does military international relations is to go into the region as a salesman, if you will, and ask who wants to work with Canada. Generally speaking, I do a pretty good job, I think. I think the salesmanship is there. There are a lot of people who want to do things. I think, if nothing else, as I talked about earlier, there's that cyber presence. We had some people in the region. We knew that there was a cyber exercise going on. When they heard that Canada was interested, they were willing to buy in as well.

That's just one small example of our being in the region and doing things because we're there.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Can you bring our committee up to date on what's going on with Operation Neon? We've had our Auroras and our warships Vancouver, Winnipeg, Ottawa and Regina there. Can one of you bring us up to speed on Operation Neon?

[MGen Greg Smith]

I'll start, and then my colleague will be the guy who can tell you about specifics.

We remain committed to Operation Neon and to monitoring sanctions against North Korea, obviously. We've been doing it episodically and historically. We'll be doing it again. It's a big part of our being in the region and contributing to security in the region.

I'll stop there and throw it over to my colleague, who can talk about specifics.