National Defence Committee on Nov. 7th, 2023

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Mr. Bezan, you have six minutes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all of our witnesses for being here.

Mr. Martel, you were just in the room listening to testimony coming from both National Defence and PSPC. I believe that Mr. Crosby and Mr. Page are still in the room.

You mentioned the timeline in your presentation. The request for information went out in February 2022. I understand that there was an April 1 deadline to indicate interest. Did you respond in time to meet that April 1 deadline to say that Bombardier was interested?

[Éric Martel]

Yes, we did, sir.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

However, you didn't come up with your announcement of partnering with General Dynamics Mission Systems-Canada until May 2023. Is that correct?

[Éric Martel]

That's correct. It became public in May 2022.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Okay.

You just heard both government officials here saying they were unaware that Bombardier was interested, or capable, of bidding for Canada's multi-mission aircraft for our maritime patrol.

[Éric Martel]

Clearly, the RFI came out in February 2022 as was mentioned before. We responded within the period of time that was prescribed. Nowhere in the RFP.... There were 13 different levels, and we said that we could comply with every single one of them. There were no questions asked about who could be the partner or anything. We just said we could do it from A to Z.

To our surprise, as this was closing, we never heard anything back after other than that a decision was being made, which was extremely surprising. We would have expected—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

You didn't hear anything back until you read in the papers about the rumours of the sole-source for the P-8s. Is that correct?

[Éric Martel]

Absolutely.

Nobody called anyone at Bombardier. We heard the rumour in December 2022, last year. We asked, “What's going on?” We filled out the paperwork. We said that we could be compliant with all of those things, and that we could do it. Nobody made any call to Bombardier. We were very surprised. Since then, we've been trying to be heard on that.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Have you been able to get an audience with National Defence, Canadian Armed Forces or PSPC?

[Éric Martel]

Yes, we have. We pretty much forced the different meetings and said that we wanted to explain what we could do. There have been several meetings throughout the year, not with me but with members of my team.

Clearly, we felt that we made the right presentation. We had the right partner. We were capable of doing this. As a CEO of a company that's listed on the public market and has a very strong code of ethics, if we say that we're capable, somebody should listen to us. I would never put my company in a position where we could not deliver on something we said we could deliver.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

In light of the testimony we heard earlier, there was a change in the operational expectancy around our current CP-140 Auroras. That was the catalyst for changing that timeline.

Would Bombardier be able to meet that expedited timeline to replace the Auroras?

[Éric Martel]

I have to admit that the timeline remains a bit unclear. We heard things two weeks ago at a different committee, and again today. Based on the timeline that is still posted on the PSPC website, we can meet those timelines. That requires the first airplane to be delivered in 2032 and the remaining by 2035. We could do that.

Actually, there's plenty of time in front of us. We're in 2023. There's apparently a process that could take place with a selection in 2027. Hopefully, we can expedite that and do even better.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

We know that PSPC and the government don't always get things right when it comes to awarding procurement contracts. Recently, we had the Canadian International Trade Tribunal rule against the government for sending a Coast Guard contract to Heddle. CITT found in favour of Davie, because there were violations in the procurement process.

Do you feel that is at play at this point in time, that there's been a violation of the proper procurement processes?

[Éric Martel]

There has clearly been a violation.

The RFI stated that this was not being made to select anyone. It was asking for information. It was confirmed earlier that they used that data and the data coming from a consultant to decide that the P-8 was the only option. That's not true. Actually, there were more options than the P-8A. There's one from Bombardier, and there are probably other people who can do that.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

If you look at the process so far, would you say there's been a lack of transparency from the government to the industry partners here?

[Éric Martel]

Absolutely. There's no transparency.

We don't even have a lot of questions today, but we've never met officially. We hear people saying that there's no decision, but everything is trending towards the P-8. All of the discussion is about justifying why the P-8 is the right airplane.

The one thing I can offer here is that we have a more capable solution. Our airplane can fly faster, higher and farther. We are actually being approached by many other countries right now for a similar application. We have a lower cost. We believe we're going to be $3 billion to $4 billion cheaper.

This is taxpayer money we're talking about here. The cost of operating our airplane will be 30% to 40% less, with 40% fewer fuel emissions, which I believe should also be a criteria. We are creating 22,000 jobs in the country if we win this contract. We're going to probably bring, with the 22,000 jobs, about $800 million of fiscal benefit and revenue to the government.

One important thing that we also bring to the table is a sovereign solution. If DND, in a few years from now, needs to make changes or improvements, it won't need to knock on the door of another country to ask permission. We're going to have a sovereign solution.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Bezan.

Ms. Hepfner, welcome to the committee. You have six minutes.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you. It's a pleasure to fill in on this committee.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here today.

I apologize. I haven't been here for the rest of the study, so if I ask a simplistic question, it's because of that.

I'd like to drill down on what you were just talking about, Mr. Martel. From your testimony here today, I understand that Bombardier does not believe that the Boeing P-8 Poseidon is the only currently available aircraft to meet all of the Canadian multi-mission aircraft's operational requirements.

[Éric Martel]

That's exactly true. That's what we said in the RFI in the first place in 2022. We told the PSPC at the time that we could meet all the requirements, so the P-8 is not the only solution. The P-8 is a much older platform that's been in service for decades now, and we're talking about offering a state-of-the-art solution that other countries today are approaching us about. You should know that countries like Korea are thinking about not taking all the deliveries of the P-8 because they are dissatisfied and considering other options. You may also add, Anne-Marie, that the Americans themselves have comments on the performance of the existing P-8.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Let me narrow that down a little bit more. Are you saying that Bombardier already has an aircraft that would suit this purpose, or are you saying that you would develop this aircraft in time?

[Éric Martel]

That's a very good question. The Global 6500 comes from a family of airplanes we launched years ago, and we just upgraded it with a new engine. We have about 1,000 of these flying in the world, so this is a robust platform with demonstrated capability. In fact, I was told at the Pentagon that this is the most reliable airplane, at 99.85%, of the entire fleet of the U.S. Air Force. That is a reliable aircraft that's been flying on the BACN program in Afghanistan for many years, and we're also flying on the GlobalEye.

This is what I was saying. Bombardier has modified 550 airplanes. When we modify an airplane for a project like this, what do we do? The engineers at Bombardier will review all the equipment that needs to be installed. It could be radar. It could be missiles, or whatever. We're going to reinforce the structure if needed, the wing or the fuselage, and we'll make the necessary modifications.

When this is done, our aerospace engineers will make sure that the airplane is still capable of flying, landing and doing all the stuff it's supposed to do. We've done this over and over—550 times. It could be an ambulance or something else. We have a GlobalEye flying today with Sweden with Saab as our partner, similar to what GDMS would be, installing equipment on our platform. It's being used by the EU. It will be used very soon by the Swedish. It's being used all around the world. There's a radar sitting on top of the fuselage that weighs a ton.

We know how to do this. We've done this over and over, and, with GDMS, we have one of the best partnerships based here in Ottawa, in Canada. Two leaders in the industry are knocking on the door saying that we're capable, we can do it and we've done it for other people, and we're not even being considered. That is a scandal.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

How many DND contracts has Bombardier already fulfilled up until recently?

[Éric Martel]

Do you mean here in Canada?