National Defence Committee on Nov. 7th, 2023

[Anne-Marie Thibaudeau]

I believe so. With an open dialogue and us helping to shape those requirements, we can definitely be able to provide a more innovative and more competitive solution, especially.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Okay.

[Pierre Seïn Pyun]

If I may, there are models that exist in Europe, like innovation partnerships in the context of public procurement, including defence procurement. I think on the point about criteria, I don't want to oversimplify this, but it's performance-based criteria versus the very prescriptive, detail-oriented criteria that Mr. Martel was referring to.

I think we've been able to observe that, when you focus on performance and you have a dialogue with the industry, that can produce better and faster results as well.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Thank you.

There's a moment to hear from SAP.

[Yana Lukasheh]

I'm happy to start, and then I'll pass over to my colleague.

A lot of what's been said today is on better aligning with industry. Whether that's in the manufacturing industry or the digital space or the technology space, the consistent dialogue with industry is going to be super important at the pre-RFP phase or pre-procurement phases. That's when a lot of the shared information about innovation, about how digital is being used, about the best practices that are evolving.... A lot of that dialogue happens there, which inadvertently expedites almost, if you will, the procurement process, because a lot of that discovery has already happened.

The second point that I'll make is on the technology as well. Adopting digital technologies that allow you visibility from end to end throughout the whole procurement process is going to be super important. You're able to put metrics around it. You're able to measure the successes of these processes. This is important information, I would assume, for departments like National Defence and PSPC, as well, as they're contracting with external vendors.

I'll turn it over to my colleague.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm sorry. I realize it's somewhat bizarre that this is the only question you have been asked in the hour or so, but Mr. Fillmore is past his time.

Thank you.

You have a minute and a half, Mr. Savard-Tremblay.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Given the importance of ensuring that the Department of National Defence has the best possible equipment for many years into the future, I am asking the committee to support this motion, as put forward by Ms. Normandin:

That, considering the joint statement of the respective Premiers of Quebec and Ontario dated November 7, 2023, concerning the public procurement of CP‑140 Aurora by the federal government, the committee is of the opinion that the government must proceed by way of a formal call for tenders before awarding any procurement contract to this effect. That the Chair of the committee immediately report this resolution of the committee to the House.

You should receive the motion in the next couple of seconds.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That motion is in order. It doesn't need time. It doesn't need 48 hours. It's relevant to the subject matter. I prefer to debate it at some other point, so we can continue with the witnesses.

Is there an appetite to defer the debate on the motion to some other point?

Monsieur Savard-Tremblay, go ahead.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

I think this is a fairly urgent motion, given that a decision is likely imminent. We also aren't sitting next week.

I think we need to debate the motion as soon as possible.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay.

It's up to the committee. What do you want to do?

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Mr. Chair, I don't want to do this, but I would like to suspend.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We can't suspend. Not without the consent of the committee, for some extraordinary reason.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

We didn't receive the motion. We have not read it.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That's legitimate. We haven't seen the motion.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I would like to have it repeated, but I see no reason to suspend.

If you repeat it, we can all hear it.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm going to give them two minutes to at least take a look at the thing.

We will suspend and be back in two minutes.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you. I'm sorry.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We'll suspend for two minutes while we look at the motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Does anybody want to debate this motion?

Go ahead, Mrs. Lalonde.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

I'm going to try to be as collaborative as possible.

Can we adjourn the debate, so we can go back to our witnesses?

I'm asking the chair to adjourn the debate.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

It's a dilatory motion.

(Motion agreed to)

The debate is suspended. We can go back to the witnesses.

Ms. Mathyssen, you have one and a half minutes.

Ain't democracy grand?

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

That was exciting.

Ms. Lukasheh, I want to give my minute and a half to you, because you had those three recommendations. I would like to provide you with the opportunity to get those in there.

[Yana Lukasheh]

I appreciate that. Thank you very much for the floor.

I discussed earlier the acceleration of the adoption of digital technologies for that continuous innovation that includes procurement processes.

The second is around defence procurement, and it should be seen as a separate category that is inclusive of IT software and services.

The third is that Canada should develop and sustain its in-country digital capabilities and ensure it's harnessing the innovative strength in Canada.

Last—and I will end with this—engage industry in non-project-specific discussions in the pre-procurement phase. We've obviously discussed that a bit throughout the committee. Not only is it to include capacity assessments within the industrial base but also to leverage the existing and emerging programs that can support DND's and the CAF's projects.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.

Mrs. Gallant, you have four minutes.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Lukasheh, I'm going to ask you three quick questions. If you cannot answer them all in the time left, would you please provide fulsome responses to our committee in writing at a later date?

Number one, how has the threat landscape evolved over the past year with respect to cyber-attacks? Do CAF and our military-industrial complex have sufficient protection against cyber-attacks? What does CAF need to develop its active cyber-capabilities and make it more active so that we can fulfill our NATO commitments?