National Defence Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2023

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Let me make sure that I understand. Does a military member's Operation Lentus deployment fall under the three‑phase cycle, or does it, in some cases, exclude the member from being deployed abroad?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

For example, the battalion currently stationed in Cyprus and ready to evacuate our citizens from Lebanon was deployed this summer in Quebec to fight fires.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

We've heard a number of times that domestic deployments can lead to a loss of interest among military members. They say that they don't want to make a career out of hauling sandbags, for example.

Has there been any analysis of how the growing number of climate emergency responses affects the appeal of the forces? Has this been documented?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

We have some data that I'm more than happy to share with this committee with respect to those deployments. I think the Canadian Armed Forces members have been absolutely extraordinary, and every time we've asked them to answer the call, they have done so. However, there are a number of reasons men and women join the Canadian Armed Forces. Part of it is because of the excellence of the training, and part of it is the opportunity to serve in a wide variety of deployments.

This year was a particularly challenging year. As the general has shared with us, there were 130 consecutive days of firefighting. That wasn't all done by one group of soldiers, or all by soldiers, and we tried to rotate people through different missions. For example, I remember the discussion during the summer, when we had fires in Nova Scotia, Quebec, Alberta, British Columbia and the Northwest Territories, and I think there was a very sincere effort made to make sure people were rotated through those, because we had to give them a break. We also did not want to take them away from training.

In my conversations, I've gone to the bases and I've thanked them for that service. I think they are proud and they should be proud of the service that they provided, but it isn't entirely consistent with all of the reasons they joined the Canadian Armed Forces. We have to be thoughtful of that, because we want to regroup those people; we want to retain them, and we want their experience in the Canadian Armed Forces to be something they can be proud of. They are certainly proud of the service they brought to Canada. They're proud of supporting Canadians in a dire time of need, but they also want the opportunity to deploy internationally and to be involved in a lot of other important missions.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I completely agree that the military members deployed on domestic operations are doing an outstanding job. However, we currently have a recruitment and retention problem.

I'll make my question more clear this time. Could the greater number of domestic deployments lead to a loss of interest in joining the armed forces?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

The general wants to jump in, but in my conversations with them I think they are truly proud of that service to Canadians, but they are also proud of the other ways in which they can serve. With the gratitude that Canadians express to them when they say thanks for coming and getting us out of this really difficult situation, I would hope that the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces would be proud of that service and be greatly encouraged in their career to know that they were there for Canadians when they were required, but it is also incumbent upon us to make sure that they have the opportunity to realize their full potential in every other aspect.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

The general wants to jump in, but the chair wants to jump in more. I've been pretty slack with the first three questioners. Ms. Mathyssen is going to benefit from that, but after this we're going to have to run a tighter clock, shall we say.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I heard “benefit”, so I'm good with that.

There have been many references, of course, to this increase in climate change disasters. You referenced the 133 consecutive days of forest fires, and hurricane Fiona. We started this study back in May 2022, and since then it's been incredible what we've seen, and that's just since the start of the study. Since 2017, as you've also mentioned, the Canadian Forces have deployed every year to assist with climate disasters.

It's like clockwork. Every time we say we're going to be more prepared, we're continuing to work on that, but in 2017, when Strong, Secure, Engaged was released, there wasn't a single new initiative to deal with climate change as part of that policy document. Can you confirm that whenever we see the defence update, whenever that may be, a large part of that will deal with the existential crisis that we are seeing in terms of climate change?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Yes ma'am. If I may, I can confirm that.

I think we've all learned a great deal from our experiences, particularly over the last three years, with the last year, of course, being the most intense, extraordinary and unprecedented.

I get tired of using the word “unprecedented”, but there's no comparison for what we've experienced in 2023 to any previous year in this country. The demands that this unprecedented set of circumstances placed upon the Canadian Armed Forces are something we have to learn from.

Now, the government has been making other significant investments—I won't get into those here—in order to be better prepared and to respond to these types of emergencies. They're things around helping communities with infrastructure investments, firefighting equipment, training, etc.

On the demands we have placed upon the Canadian Armed Forces, I would like to say it's a one-off thing, it only happened this year, and we won't have to worry about it again, but that cannot be true. I don't believe that, because what we are seeing over time is an increase and an acceleration of these weather-related disasters, so we ask and will continue to ask the Canadian Armed Forces to be there for Canadians, but other things also need to be done in order to....

With great respect to the Canadian Armed Forces, it's an expensive response. It may not, in all circumstances, be the best response, but for us, it's been the best choice, and they've always answered that call.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Back in the spring, even the chair—and I don't refer to him often—mentioned that the defence update was coming forward very soon. In fact, it was going to be within days. We still have not seen that.

Do you have an update on when we can see that? Is there a timeline, perchance?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Yes ma'am.

Those are very important discussions with respect to the defence policy update, because it's not simply a policy document; it requires significant new investments in defence capability, so it's very much tied into our ongoing budgetary discussions in the Government of Canada. We are in a situation that has to recognize the fiscal environment, but at the same time, the urgency of additional investments in defence is also clearly part of those discussions.

It will come when we complete those budget discussions.

It's our job, with your help, to make sure that the requirements for the Canadian Armed Forces and the investments we have to make—both in its people and in its infrastructure and equipment—are well known and prioritized.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Many of the studies we do overlap a great deal. Last year, we heard from Calvin Pedersen—he's a fourth-generation Canadian Ranger—as part of our Arctic study. Of course, rangers are called on quite a lot in terms of climate change and search and rescue.

Calvin is a lead researcher. He's part of that search and rescue project. These organizations are on the front lines. They're helping with disaster relief. We call upon them, as well, to do a great deal, but the reimbursement for equipment usage impacts their work significantly as rangers, as well as their ability to do a lot of other things.

The committee recommended that the equipment usage rate be tied to inflation, but the government hasn't done that yet. The defence ombudsman reported that rangers lack adequate access to the health care, housing and basic infrastructure needed to do their work.

Can we see those supports coming forward sooner rather than later to support what the rangers are doing in dealing with climate change emergencies, dealing with those frontline issues and dealing with search and rescue?

[Bill Matthews, Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence]

Can I start, if you're okay with that, Minister?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Please. Of course.

[Bill Matthews]

Thank you. The chief will want to jump in as well.

There are two issues that I would flag. The member is quite right about the reports. There is an ongoing review of the role of the rangers' equipment and the training, and eventually, that will include the compensation. That work is ongoing. The chief will touch on that.

The other thing I would flag that has come up with rangers—the member didn't raise this, but I think it's related—is delays in reimbursing them for broken equipment or equipment that was damaged while on duty. We have made some changes to improve that process so that it's more timely. We have a good process, if they can get the repair done while on duty. Where we were falling down was if the repair happened after they got back home and they had to submit paperwork. We're working to tighten up that process as well, which is equally important.

Go ahead, Chief.

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Mr. Chair, when I was the army commander in 2020, I implemented something called the Canadian Ranger enhancement program, and that work continues. It looks at exactly those types of issues: compensation and benefits for personally owned equipment, reimbursements, etc. That has been put in place, but the work continues, with a comprehensive review of such things as training, equipment, structure, policies and infrastructure.

The model we had for when somebody came in was based on somebody having traditional skills to live off the land. We've noticed that perhaps some of those traditional skills are eroding, so we're revisiting the underlying assumptions for the Canadian Rangers program.

We also need to take a look, as security in the extremities of our nation becomes increasingly challenged, at the role of the rangers. Right now, their primary role is to be our eyes, ears and guides. What else can they do to enhance the national security of our country? That work is ongoing.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

That would mean re-examinations and consultation, I would assume.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Ms. Mathyssen, don't stretch your benefits.

If we are going to get in a full round, we'll have to be very tight with the time.

Ms. Kramp-Neuman is next.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you.

Of course, we're in the middle of a perfect storm. The perfect storm is continuing, and the capacity for natural disasters is definitely a concern. The troop strength is relevant to that, in terms of how CAF can help Lentus.

For my first question, section 3.1 of the departmental report states that the “Canadian Armed Forces is growing towards its end state of 101,500 personnel”, yet the results achieved paint a very different picture. In every single performance indicator, percentages have dropped year after year. The force establishment is down 5%; reserve forces are down 5%, and the percentage of occupations with critical shortfalls is up a staggering 20%. Even the footnotes come right out and say that the department, under your leadership, cannot compete with the labour market or attract talent.

Why is this, and why is it that year after year your government has not only failed to reverse the recruitment and retention crisis, but statistically, it's showing even worse?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I think there are a number of reasons for that. There's the aftermath of the pandemic and a number of other factors. I will also tell you that in my consultations with defence ministers from across the globe, including in the United States, they're facing similar recruitment and retention challenges. There is important work that needs to take place.

Perhaps I can turn to the chief of the defence staff and have him explain, if you'd like.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

If I may, Minister Blair, objectively and verifiably, the numbers contradict this. For example, the title is “Canadian Armed Forces is growing towards its end state of 101 500 personnel”, but then the numbers in the footnote absolutely disagree with it.

My question to you is, what objective steps have you taken to fix this recruitment and retention crisis? We can't support Operation Lentus, or similar, if we don't have the people.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I think the people are the most important part of the Canadian Armed Forces. I share your concern with the challenges that the Canadian Armed Forces and other armed forces around the world have been facing with recruiting the talent they need. I think there are also challenges in retaining that talent, because many of the great men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces are finding it difficult to serve. It does require that we work with them and make investments in housing, child care, health services and all of the important supports that the Canadian Armed Forces members need in order to continue to serve.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Okay, so speaking more specifically to housing and/or child care, in section 3.2, the percentage of CAF members who feel that the CAF can provide “reasonable quality of life for service members and their families” and the percentage of CAF members “who feel positive about their job” are unavailable. Can you please explain why DND is not including that in the departmental report?