National Defence Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2023

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

In fact, as Minister Blair mentioned, the Canadian Armed Forces are used as a last resort. Since more extreme weather events and other emergencies have significantly increased the need, we need to make sure we have the proper capabilities built in at the municipal, provincial and federal levels.

What we want to do is make sure we have the right resources at the right places at the right time. The one you mentioned from Germany is something we are looking at actively. We are looking at other nations as well to see what's going to be suited to our country.

We're going to be going across the country to talk with the provinces and territories, especially at the local levels, with mayors. I was speaking with about five mayors just today and talking about what their needs are, to make sure we can respond to the uniqueness of each province and territory.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

That's great.

Since a denial of service cyber-attack on critical infrastructure can quickly become a public emergency, how is the emergency preparedness department command centre alerted when a cyber-attack has been detected?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

First of all, when it comes to an emergency, those are things that we are looking at. I'm glad that you are looking at emergencies much more broadly, because a lot of the time when we talk about emergencies, it comes down to wildfires and floods. We do need to look across that board.

Not only are we looking at how to respond to cyber, but we'll be working very closely with the cyber centre to make sure there are the proper resources, which the Minister of National Defence obviously controls. This is some of the work that will be ongoing as we look at exercising our emergency management system all across the country, not only on wildfires and floods but on emergencies like cyber-attacks as well.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

In Ontario alone, a number of hospitals have suffered cyber-attacks within the last few months. With the nature of a cyber-attack on hospital systems knocking out communications, electrical and heating systems all at once, does your department have an action plan to provide immediate assistance?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

What I would say is that, with the example that you have provided, there is a system already in place within CSE and the cyber centre to be able to respond to provide support. More importantly, it's not just to respond when there's a cyber-attack; it's on the preventative side, to make sure organizations are cyber safe as well.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

What we're talking about is over and on top of a cyber-attack. It very often leads to a physical problem in a hospital with the absence of heating or electricity, etc. Reinforcements could be called in to help, as you did during COVID with the nursing homes.

Is there a plan in place to immediately respond to that type of emergency, where the initial one is a cyber attack but where there are consequences afterwards that demand assistance from civil authorities?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I would say that, if a scenario were to develop where greater resources were required at a provincial or municipal level that goes beyond, yes, they would be coming to us.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

As the Minister of Emergency Preparedness, have you been briefed on the updated Government of Canada cybersecurity event management plan that came into effect in October?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I haven't had all of the briefings just yet.

Having said that, I was Minister of National Defence when we created our cyber centre. A lot of the work that takes place in how we respond is something I'm extremely proud of. I know the cyber centre has responded to many events.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Would you please get back to this committee and inform us once you have received that briefing?

In terms of that, for six years our defence minister.... You would have learned from the mistakes you made in that role. Since then, you've carried on to your new role. What have you learned and how are you applying what you learned from those errors to your new position here?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I would say there's always stuff that all of us can learn as we move forward.

In my current role as Minister of Emergency Preparedness, looking at when the defence policy was put together to respond, there are a lot more climate-induced disasters now, and we're working on making sure that the response we actually have can work at the local level as quickly as possible.

Those are the things we're looking at in terms of what type of response we have, and that's not just for floods and wildfire.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Getting back to what you mentioned, which was the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security, the CSE fell under your portfolio as Minister of Defence. Is there a direct line of communication if there is an event happening that the CSE has been alerted to, and the cyber security centre as well? How long does it take for the public safety minister's office to know what's going on and be able to start formulating a plan, should Public Safety need to be involved?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I would say that when it comes to any type of security incident, the appropriate people are involved extremely quickly.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

On emergency preparedness, your portfolio with emergency preparedness now has a plan. You monitor and you have access to information about the cyber events that are going on.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

It all depends. It depends on what type of event it is.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

All right, thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Let's hope we all learn from our mistakes.

Madam Lambropoulos, you have six minutes, please.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Chair, and I'd like to thank you, Minister Sajjan, for being here with us to answer our questions today.

Minister, as you know, Minister Blair actually sat in the chair you're sitting in before you, on the previous panel, and he mentioned the humanitarian workforce. I was wondering if you could perhaps speak to us a little about the ways in which the federal government is leveraging that, preparing that workforce to eventually be able to do more of the heavy lifting when it comes to natural disasters and when it comes to the needs here at home, so that the armed forces are called on less in the future.

Of course, you did mention that it's a last resort and that they're called on only when absolutely needed, but is there anything being done to ensure that other groups on the ground, such as the humanitarian workforce, are prepared and equipped to be able to take care of these situations?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

The humanitarian workforce that Minister Blair has started is an extremely important program. We know that what we have learned during previous disasters.... If you go back to 2017, during the wildfires in British Columbia, the Red Cross and many other non-governmental organizations stepped in to provide support. What this does is it gives the government operations centre a greater ability to look at other organizations to respond, so whether it was the Red Cross or The Salvation Army, or in some cases even the United Way, when it came to the Northwest Territories, what we were doing was actually providing funding to build up their capabilities.

We are now also discussing how we can enhance the coordination in these types of emergencies, and more importantly, be able to exercise, because when it comes to an emergency, there's the actual response to the event itself, but also there are many other things that take place when you look at the evacuation of Canadians.

There's a lot that goes into that, and we want to make sure we have the right organizations as part of this humanitarian workforce that can provide the appropriate assistance.

Trevor, did you want to add anything?

[Trevor Bhupsingh, Assistant Deputy Minister, Emergency Management and Programs Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

I think our intention is really to build off our experience with the humanitarian workforce. We started with the Canadian Red Cross and then we added three NGOs, the St. John Ambulance, SARVAC—the Search and Rescue Volunteer Association of Canada—and The Salvation Army.

We're currently reviewing the humanitarian workforce, and our intention is to see if we can add other NGOs. We're looking at it—in terms of the point that was made earlier—to see if there are other elements that we could add to this, including looking at civilian response, so there is ongoing work in terms of evaluating the humanitarian workforce as it stands now, and our intention is to build out that function or provide opportunities to do that with the objective of releasing the pressure that is currently on the Canadian Armed Forces.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you very much.

For my next question, I'm going to ask you to perhaps explain to the committee what the process is when a province needs federal assistance. How are these needs assessed? Then, based on the assessment made, how are decisions made afterwards regarding who to call on for help? What's the line you need to cross in order to get to the armed forces?

Can you please explain what the process is when a province needs help?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

The process itself is set, but I also want to explain how, in reality, it gets done. It can go very quickly, because when a disaster like a flood or wildfire.... What you're trying to do is predict or monitor the situation on the ground, so there are ongoing discussions continuously.

The process itself is this: When a province feels it doesn't have all the tools or the ability, it makes a request to the federal government. That comes to my department. Then the government operations centre assesses the actual need. It's not about looking at what resources are needed. It's about what the actual situation is and what problem needs to be solved. We look at what the best tool needed is. In some cases, it could be the Canadian Armed Forces. In other cases, it could be another organization. The Coast Guard has been deployed a number of times this wildfire season, especially. They then work out the iteration time and what is needed. Then the request comes to me. If the Canadian Armed Forces are needed, it goes to the Minister of National Defence for approval, and they are authorized for deployment.

Trevor, do you want to add anything to that?

[Trevor Bhupsingh]

In terms of assessment within the department, when a request comes in from a jurisdiction—a province or territory—the government operations centre will take a look at it and assess it across a bunch of criteria, including whether it's a valid request that we can help with and whether there are available federal resources that could be engaged, including the Canadian Armed Forces. We look at the nature of the situation and the outbreak, how it's happening and what the capabilities and gaps are.

Then we look at the regional circumstances that surround the request itself. By that, I mean we look at the capabilities within the jurisdiction and whether or not they can respond to it. Obviously, there is variability across the federation in terms of the capacity of each jurisdiction.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That's pretty much it.

Thank you, Madam Lambropoulos.

Ms. Normandin, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Minister Sajjan, thank you for being here.

Please keep in mind that my questions seek to shed light on the pressure being exerted on defence, given that this constitutes the main topic of our study.

With the previous panel, we spoke about the responsibility of the different levels of government when the Canadian Armed Forces are called upon to respond. Everyone is involved, at the municipal, provincial and federal levels.

Who is ultimately responsible for not taking proactive steps to avoid having to call upon the Canadian Armed Forces?

Between the Department of National Defence and the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, are the responsibilities set out? For example, could the Department of National Defence say that the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness could have done more before calling upon the Canadian Armed Forces?