National Defence Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2023

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

That is a very good question. In fact, that's exactly what we're trying to achieve. When it was originally envisioned during the consultations with Canadians, for the defence policy, there was obviously a need for the Canadian Armed Forces to make sure that, as a force of last resort, it would be able to respond. However, as you have seen, it's been so frequent that the Canadian Armed Forces have been called upon. Therefore, it is important for all of us at municipal, provincial and federal levels to assess what types of resources are going to be needed to deal with the increased frequency of responding to emergencies.

This is what is being developed now. We're having federal, provincial and territorial meetings across the country. I am also meeting with mayors to determine, province by province and territory by territory, what resources are going to be needed. We need to make sure, right down to the municipal level, what types of resources are going to be needed, what type of training is going to be required and what types of resources are going to be needed at the provincial level and then at the federal level.

Putting the CAF aside, we want to know the type of resource that needs to be in the right place at the right time, and then look at the CAF only as a last resort. For example, we are looking at options right now for how to have more firefighters. Yes, we need to train more type 1 firefighters, but the Canadian Armed Forces provides type 3 firefighters. We need to look at how we could train type 2, so there are different options being looked at. It's premature to talk about it just yet.

We are analyzing what types of things the Canadian Armed Forces has been asked to do that could have been done by somebody else, and we are looking at the Canadian Armed Forces only for what is absolutely needed. For example, there are certain things that only the Canadian Armed Forces can do, and evacuation is one. When we need to do very quick evacuation and we don't have time to contract aircraft, we want to be able to move our resources in quickly. The Canadian Armed Forces also has the capability to fly at night, and those types of things in remote areas are also very important.

We're going do that assessment, and more importantly, what we want to do as we look at this is to exercise that area. That way, we're not only using the CAF less, but also looking at how we prevent emergencies that go beyond the capacity of municipal or provincial levels.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Minister Sajjan.

I want to focus on how the Department of National Defence and the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness interact. Can the Department of National Defence hold the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness accountable for not investing enough in mitigation or prevention measures, or for not having a proper plan in place to avoid having to call upon the armed forces?

Do the two departments interact at the federal level?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

There are always ongoing discussions in terms of what is needed. I would say, with Minister Blair now as Minister of Defence, having started in this portfolio, he has a very good sense of what is actually needed. We're able to have some very good discussions directly.

Probably what's most important is that the response for disasters has always been at a provincial level. If you looked at previous decades, it was handled at a provincial level. We need to make sure the right mitigation, adaptation and prevention pieces are done at a provincial level. Now, we are analyzing what types of resources are going to be needed.

We don't want to focus just on the response. Yes, the response has to be there, but we need to ask what we need to do to actually prevent disaster. For example, if we had to look at certain wildfires in this last season, where did they start? If a response had been faster in a certain area, could we have prevented greater disasters?

One key thing we're doing now is actually training firefighters on interface fires. It was identified in previous years that there was a shortage, so right now, more are being trained. There will be more firefighters who are knowledgeable on how to prevent fires from going into structures.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Be very brief, please.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

The minister of public safety for one province told us earlier that, if the federal government provided more funding to the provinces, there would be less need to call upon the armed forces.

Do you agree with this statement?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

It's a shared responsibility, from right down at the municipal level and at the provincial level, as to what types of resources are going to be required, and yes, from the federal level.

We have always responded, especially when it comes to the disaster financial assistance arrangements, where, when it comes to recovery, the federal government provides 90% of the eligible expenses. All of us need to be able to look at what resources are going to be needed in providing support. Many different departments are going to be involved in that at the federal level and at the provincial level.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Normandin.

Before I ask Ms. Mathyssen for her six minutes, is there a cheap and cheerful way to tell us what the difference is between a firefighter level 1, a level 2 and a level 3, and what is it?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Trevor, do you want to answer that?

I can give you my rudimentary answer, but....

[Trevor Bhupsingh]

It's really about the danger and the risk, Chair.

We can provide you with tier 1, tier 2 and tier 3 responsibilities.

Tier 1 is obviously the most risky and dangerous, where people are actually firefighting.

Tier 3 has more supportive functions around firefighting. That could be clearing wood or all sorts of things that are the consequences of fires.

It's a tiered system, where tier 1 firefighters are under the most risk and danger from fires.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

What it includes, just so you know what the tier 1 is, is that it comes with the right experience and a team that can actually be deployed and is able to manage that. Tier 2s have more experience, and they can go, but they would require the right level of experience to be able to lead them.

Tier 3 is what the Canadian Armed Forces would do. It's on the mop-up side. When the Canadian Armed Forces deploy in these types of situations, it frees up the tier 1 and tier 2 firefighters to go to fight the other fires, and the Canadian Armed Forces come in for the mop-up.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay. That's helpful. I hope that's helpful to other members, because I didn't know what that was.

You have six minutes, please, Ms. Mathyssen.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

Of course, indigenous people across Canada are on the front lines of climate change very often, and they rely upon the federal government to help them, as do all other communities and so on in terms of the mitigation of natural disasters.

I received some numbers that were shared by my colleague, MP Ashton, on an order paper question. Since the Liberals have come into government, $388.3 million has been given to first nations communities to help with “natural disaster mitigation and prevention efforts”. At the same time, $788.7 million has been spent to evacuate first nations and respond to emergency events.

Now, one would assume that we should be spending more on prevention than we are in terms of evacuation. Certainly, a lot of indigenous nations, first nations, are looking for that support and are begging, actually, for that help, in order to get to that level of preparedness.

We've had many conversations in this committee about potential cuts that are coming forward. The AFN estimates that it will take $350 billion for the federal government to meet its promise and responsibility to close by 2030 the infrastructure gap that is being seen by first nations.

The question here is, because of that concern, because of those potential cuts, can we hear from you today that promise and that clear commitment that funding will increase for first nations leaders across the country, and that no funding will be cut from disaster mitigation efforts, especially in northern, rural and remote communities?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I can talk to you, obviously, about the emergency preparedness and response side. Ever since 2017, when the Canadian Armed Forces responded to the wildfires in British Columbia and a lot of towns were under threat, we heard from first nations communities about a lot of their concerns. They felt that their knowledge was not being utilized or that they had resources that were not being utilized.

A lot of work has gone into supporting indigenous-led response to emergencies, but it's not equal across all provinces, from what I see right now. What I can tell you is that funding is going to go through Indigenous Services Canada for this. As part of my consultations, I am also meeting with indigenous leadership across the country. Tk’emlúps First Nation is one good example of this. They're looking not only at coming together as different first nations communities for an evacuation centre, but at what the type of response force would look like and what it would look like when utilizing their knowledge. This is part of the plan. I can't give you the exact numbers. Those would be coming from Indigenous Services Canada, but we are looking at this across the board.

Just last week, I met with a company that is made up of 13 first nations groups in the Yukon that are actually training type 1 firefighters. We're looking all across the board, not only at how best we can utilize their knowledge, but more importantly at making sure we have the right response plans for their communities as well.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

At this point, if it's not $350 billion, it would be a cut. That's ultimately what they're concerned about.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I can talk about the response plan. In terms of that, I feel it is much better now than it was in previous years. I do have to get more information from other provinces. I haven't visited all of them, but I have met with indigenous leadership all across the country so far. This work will be ongoing.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Just as a note, you mentioned Crown-indigenous affairs and services, but when they go to that department too, they are being shifted back to yours. This game of back-and-forth is particularly difficult for those nations.

You talked about the firefighters and level 1, level 2 and level 3. One concern that has clearly been brought to my attention over and over again is the fact that those firefighters across the board, whatever level they're at, are fitted with gear that is actually toxic. In all of the things they deal with environmentally, whether they are level 1 or level 3 or what have you, they are faced with the fact that they often have to breathe in toxic smoke, and the gear that is meant to protect them is killing them.

I want to know directly from you what is being done specifically in dealing with all of that, to make sure we are doing everything we can to ensure that they don't have gear that, again, is meant to protect them but ends up in fact doing them more harm.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I try to get to every disaster-affected area to be able to talk to some of the firefighters, as I did this year. I haven't heard this concern directly, but if it is a concern, I will definitely look into this and raise it at the provincial-territorial meeting. Each province has its own system in place for firefighting and the type of equipment that is needed.

I would add too that one of the concerns is that the increased wildfires and responses are taking a mental toll on the firefighters. They've been bounced around from one emergency to another. They are getting less time off, and they are away from their families. This is another area that I'll be bringing up as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.

I just want to reiterate her concern about the outfits. There's alarming evidence that the outfits are causing serious kinds of cancer in those kinds of people. As the number of fires increases, it's almost inevitable that the number of people exposed will increase. I think her point is well taken.

Mr. Kelly, you have five minutes, please.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you.

Your government has announced a $1-billion cut to the Department of National Defence. Are you concerned about the ability of the Canadian Armed Forces to lend aid to civilian power, given the cut that your government has announced to the CAF?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I think Minister Blair already addressed this question directly, as it is his portfolio. One thing I can tell you is that every time the Canadian Armed Forces have been called upon, they have been able to respond.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

He did, and I'm asking you, as the Minister of Emergency Preparedness, if you think it will affect your ability to fulfill your responsibilities that the defence department will be cut by $1 billion.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I'm confident that if the Canadian Armed Forces are needed, they will be able to respond.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Does your planning presume that there will likely be additional calls and that the number of requests to the CAF will rise in the years ahead?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

It's hard to predict. I would say that the frequency...whether or not it's going to be the Canadian Armed Forces, there will be frequent emergencies. Whether the Canadian Armed Forces will be needed more than they have been before, it's hard to say just yet, but it's easy to assume, given what's taken place in the past, that the Canadian Armed Forces would potentially be called upon to respond.