National Defence Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2023

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

That's fair enough. I don't want to put you in too bad a spot there, next to the minister.

Minister, could you comment, then, on—

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

He's pretty safe sitting next to me.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Yes.

Could you comment? Your departmental reports reveal.... Lapsed spending has become endemic under your government. It is a problem, and it's a problem that continues to get worse, according to your departmental results. The defence team very slightly overspent on the authorities granted and available for use. It exceeded the authority by about $12 million. That's small. It's a rounding error, but that's the area where you actually spent the money, and then some, on what was authorized.

The areas that were underspent, that were lapsed money, where money that was authorized by Parliament was not spent, include operations, ready forces, future force design, procurement of capabilities, sustainable bases, information technology systems and infrastructure. Every one of those categories had significant lapsed spending. Will these lapsed funding expenditures...are they going to help us in your department's ability to meet domestic operational deployment needs?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I'm going to turn to the deputy minister, who might be able to provide you with the information.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I would like to hear your answer. We get officials more frequently.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Well, of course, but I'm going to turn to the deputy minister to give you some information. If you would like the facts, he can provide them.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Sure.

[Bill Matthews]

Mr. Chair, what I would focus in on is that some degree of lapsing is healthy. You want to be kind of in the 3% range, because it's illegal to overspend the total vote by Parliament, and that money gets re-profiled. I would encourage the committee, when we focus in on lapses, to look at projects. When project money lapses, it means two things. We can always carry that money forward, but it erodes because of inflation. It also means that we use assets longer than intended, and their maintenance bills go up. We had a significant amount of lapsing last year, for instance. It was nothing to do with projects; it was delays in settling a class action lawsuit. That's just the process at work. That's fine.

We have a grant program that we launched this year, for which the take-up has been less than initially expected. That's fine, too. Projects are the ones that concern the chief and me the most, because that's the project to deliver the capability. Sometimes that's us being delayed in defining requirements; other times it's challenges with industry. There's a myriad of reasons, but I would really encourage the committee to zero in on those lapses related to projects.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I suspect that those facts will be helpful.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Kelly.

Mr. Fillmore, you have five minutes, please.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair, and thanks to the witnesses for being with us.

Moreover, thanks to all three of the gentlemen for joining us at the Halifax International Security Forum for a great weekend. MP Fisher and I were very pleased to welcome you and other members of the committee to our part of the world for some really important dialogue. Thank you very much for that.

The flavour of my inquiry is going to be this: Does the increased operational tempo of Lentus point us to the conclusion that response horsepower other than in the CAF is needed? I want to see your thinking a bit with respect to a couple of things.

CTV recently reported—reporting on your remarks, I believe, Minister—that there used to be “between five and 10 formal requests for [federal] assistance from the provinces and territories each year.” However, between March 2020 and October 2022, “there were more than 200 requests”, 157 of which involved the military. We saw, just in Nova Scotia, 700 members deployed for Fiona. Just in Nova Scotia, we saw 450 deployed for Dorian. It's not just personnel. It's ships like HMCS Margaret Brooke. It's fixed-wing aircraft. It's helicopters. It's right down to chainsaws. It's equipment otherwise deployed that's being diverted. It's service members otherwise deployed being diverted. It's that their training may not be exactly what is required, and we saw that there was some retraining required on site.

I guess what I want to ask you is this: What is the specific nature of the challenges that this raises for the CAF and its members, and how do you meet those challenges? How does that tie into what else is needed, if it's something different, like non-profits and so forth?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thanks, Andy.

We need to be very clear that in responding to all of these requests for assistance from the provinces and territories there is a significant cost to the Canadian Armed Forces. There's a price to be paid, and we've been paying that price in our operational readiness for other things. It's been difficult on our members.

We acknowledge that cost, and there are important discussions that need to take place in the country. That includes the provincial, territorial, municipal and indigenous governments, to make sure they have increased capability in order to respond to emergencies, and also to make sure investments are made to mitigate the impacts of some of the emergencies we have encountered. That can be a number of things, including helping communities make better decisions about where they locate in flood plain areas, for example.

As we've indicated, there is a cost associated to having the Canadian Armed Forces do this. I think it's important that we work very closely with provinces and territories in order to ensure that, for example, additional firefighters are trained. It's very clear that we're going to need more of them in the coming years. If the circumstances exceed their capacity, we'll make sure that the Canadian Armed Forces can come in to supplement their capabilities.

I want to be very clear that this should be, in my opinion, a capability that supplements the provincial, territorial and local requirements. We want to continue to encourage them and even support them in building up those requirements so that they have the water bombers, the firefighters and all of the skills that they need in order to respond. Only in critical, emergent situations should we be calling on the Canadian Armed Forces, because we do acknowledge that there's been a cost. There's been a cost to their answering the call. We're very grateful that they've always done it, but it's important to also recognize that it's a very expensive cost that we're incurring. It's a cost to the Canadian Armed Forces. It's also a cost to the Canadian government and the Canadian people. We have to find the most efficient way to respond to emergencies, as well.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Thank you.

Unless one of the other witnesses wants to add anything, I will carry on.

Minister, it seems you're positioning the provincial and territorial governments as the front line, with CAF as the backup to fill in where required. Let me know if I have that wrong.

Where in that calculus would NGOs like the Red Cross and so forth fit?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I hope I was clear. I believe it is primarily the responsibility of the local authorities of jurisdiction. In most cases, those are the provincial and territorial governments. In a large city, it could also be the municipality that has responsibility for first response in emergencies. The only time the Canadian Armed Forces are called in is when we receive a request through a provincial or territorial government for additional assistance, when the circumstances exceed their capacity to respond.

Now, we've just had an extraordinary couple of years. There have been far too many instances when the circumstances exceeded the capacity of the local authority to respond. However, it's their responsibility.

We also recognize—I think it's important, as I used to do this for a living—that NGOs and civil society have a remarkable capacity, which we as government are investing in. That's why we put a lot of money into training and support for the Canadian Red Cross, as an example. It's to create a humanitarian workforce that all provinces and territories can draw upon. They do, by the way. Each of them has a relationship with the Canadian Red Cross, The Salvation Army, St. John Ambulance and the search and rescue association. I also think Team Rubicon can and should be a very important part of that. I hope this work will continue. We have begun it, but much more needs to be done.

There are all sorts of civil organizations that are very important parts of this, because Canadians are.... The first response to every emergency is the public. Canadians are great at that response.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're going to have to leave it there, Mr. Fillmore.

I was disappointed that we didn't actually.... We have essentially talked about calling on the forces for natural disasters. The tendency seems to be first call, rather than last call. What we haven't talked about is calling on the resources of CAF for things like armouries and training facilities, when civil authorities wish to appropriate those for emergencies.

I would be interested in your thoughts on that—hopefully briefly. I think it's, if you will, an emerging resource. People don't appreciate the significance of that call for the training and upskilling of our own troops.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Mr. Chair, quite recently, the City of Toronto asked for the use of our armouries in Toronto as temporary shelters for homeless...primarily refugees. To be very clear, there are 3,100 Canadian Armed Forces members. About 2,900 of them are in uniform. The rest are civilians who work in those armouries. The armouries are not vacant buildings waiting to be exploited for any purpose. They are places where people work. Our regiments and reserves operate from those places. We also run a cadet program out of those places. They are also places where our reservists train and are deployed from.

Quite frankly, I have tried to make this very clear. I had a long conversation with the mayor of the City of Toronto about that. In my very strong opinion, those armouries are not the appropriate place to house the homeless. There are other appropriate places.

As an example, quite recently, the City of Toronto actually closed five different temporary shelters for refugees before they asked us to open up the reserves and have us take them in there. We used those armouries, unfortunately, in 2004 and again in 2019. Homeless advocates said the conditions there were deplorable. I was there and I agree. In 2019, a man died there. It's an unsafe, unsanitary and unhealthy environment. We can do better and need to do better.

I believe the request to use armouries in these circumstances doesn't acknowledge how important those armouries and the reserves who work in them are to our safety and national defence. They are critically important.

We can do better, and we're going to have to do better.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Minister.

That is an element of our study that we, frankly, didn't anticipate when we drew up the terms of reference.

With that, I will suspend, but Mr. Bezan has a point of order, I understand.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Mr. Chair, in his comment, Deputy Minister Matthews said that they were trying to stay within the 3% range and that they're more concerned from the department on the Canadian Armed Forces side about projects. We are unaware of anywhere you can find a list of those projects, so I would ask that he table that information with the committee.

Right now, procurement of capabilities, for example, was 21% short, and that's $1 billion. Sustainable bases, information technology systems and infrastructure are another $200 million short, which is also outside of that 3%. If you could submit that project by project to the committee for this study, it would be very worthwhile.

[Bill Matthews]

Could I propose an alternative, Mr. Chair?

Number one, the departmental results report is structured to follow the TBS format. That's the format we have, but capability projects are critical for us. Those are great topics for supplementary estimates, which we are coming back to discuss shortly. I would be happy to discuss them then.

If we don't meet the answers there, then I'm happy to submit written information afterwards.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Bring them.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Let's leave it.

The minister, Mr. Matthews and the chief of the defence staff are coming back. If that's still an outstanding issue, we'll deal with it then.

Meanwhile, I want to thank all three of you for your appearance. This is a very difficult topic to deal with, and we appreciate your contributions.

Colleagues, we'll suspend while we bring in the next panel.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We are resuming.

We are blessed with the presence of a very familiar face.

Welcome back to your favourite committee, Minister Sajjan. We look forward to what you have to say for the next five minutes, and then we'll go to questions.

Thank you.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Minister of Emergency Preparedness]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's great to be back and to see all of you. Thank you for all the work you do.

I want to thank the committee members for inviting me to participate in this study. It's a very important one. I'm happy to provide any clarification on the different resources available to the federal government during emergencies. I hope to help the committee members better understand the role of the Canadian Armed Forces during domestic deployment.

I know that Minister Blair was already here. He used to do my job before, and I used to do his, so we're working very well together in this regard.

I know that I can speak for all Canadians when I express my sincere gratitude for the tremendous work all our Canadian Armed Forces members have provided over the years. In the last few years alone, the Canadian Armed Forces has helped provincial governments and Canadians from coast to coast to coast when they had to face many significant, climate-related weather events.

The Canadian Armed Forces was also there during the COVID pandemic. In my home province of B.C., they responded after an atmospheric river cut off the province from the rest of the country. They also responded during the ice storm that left millions without power for days, and during the floods that displaced and impacted so many Canadians across the country.

This year alone, fires burned over 18 million hectares of our beautiful country. This has displaced thousands and threatened the homes of over 230,000 Canadians. From May to October, the federal government responded to 18 requests for federal assistance from provinces and territories to help respond to the devastation caused by wildfires. Canada deployed more than 2,000 Canadian Armed Forces members to respond to the worst wildfire season in Canada's recorded history.

Before 2020, the government operations centre would coordinate between five and 12 RFAs per year. From January 2020 to August 2023, it responded to more than 230. These numbers clearly show that we are in a climate crisis. It is here, and it is happening now.

Emergency management organizations across the country are now facing the dire realities of climate change. The science is telling us that climate-related events will only increase in frequency, severity and intensity. We do not anticipate the number of requests for assistance to return to prepandemic levels. Sadly, our estimate is that they will only increase.

To put numbers on the crisis Canadians are living through, the Government of Canada has paid $7.9 billion in its entire history through the disaster financial assistance arrangement. Most of this—$5.8 billion—has been spent in the last 10 years alone, when you include the costs of hurricane Fiona and this year's wildfires.

Extreme weather events are not only costly to the government. In 2022 alone, they cost Canadians $3.1 billion in insured losses as well. Because of the extreme weather events, Canada now routinely exceeds about $2 billion annually for insured losses. These increased costs show that the impact of climate change is becoming more severe, putting further strain on Canada's emergency management system, as well as on our people, the economy, our first responders and all levels of government.

Mr. Chair, as you know, the National Defence Act allows the Canadian Armed Forces to be authorized to provide assistance in an emergency. That is why a very strict process must be followed before there is deployment. When an RFA is submitted, it must undergo a strict assessment by the government operations centre and its regional offices. The GOC then recommends a solution that could involve the Canadian Armed Forces only when regional, provincial, territorial and even commercial solutions are exhausted.

There must also be a clearly defined and feasible timeline for the CAF deployment. It needs to be time-limited and focused on the response phase rather than the long-term recovery.

Although we are grateful for the tremendous help provided by the Canadian Armed Forces, it should always and only be considered a force of last resort. We have been working with provinces, territories and indigenous partners on the federal plan to respond to emergencies—the FERP—to build a whole-of-society approach to emergencies.

To further help the provinces, we have put in place a humanitarian workforce program that was started by Minister Blair. This program aims to build a scalable civilian workforce that can be rapidly deployed in emergencies.

Since 2020, we have provided more than $166.9 million to the Canadian Red Cross, St. John Ambulance, The Salvation Army and SARVAC through this program. The funding has allowed these organizations to develop the capacity to mobilize more quickly to respond to extreme weather events and deploy critical, on-the-ground support to local governments.

To ensure that Canada is better equipped to face climate change, we have also put into place a national adaptation strategy. It's a whole-of-society blueprint to guide all orders of government, indigenous partners and the private sector to collaboratively reduce the impacts of extreme weather events.

We need to face the fact that climate change is real and continues to impact a greater number of Canadians every year. Through this strategy, we'll work upstream to mitigate, prepare, respond and expedite recovery for emergencies as we strengthen our resilience. Our government is committed to helping all the provinces and territories strengthen their capacity.

I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Minister.

Ms. Gallant, go ahead for six minutes, please.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The committee heard testimony about Germany's civilian volunteer corps, THW, which is activated in emergency situations.

Has the minister investigated how a similar civilian volunteer corps comprised of people from all walks of life, including nursing and engineering, could be activated to assist in public emergencies, or is the government trying to transform our military into just aid to civil society, period?