National Defence Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2023

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

The big concern that we've always had is that the Canadian Armed Forces are underfunded. When they go out and do sandbagging, fight fires, or help in hurricanes and other natural disasters, who pays for that?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Obviously, that comes out of the regular budget.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

It comes out of the Canadian Armed Forces' budget, not the Public Safety budget.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

That's right.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Shouldn't it be coming out of the Public Safety budget?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

When it comes to the level of that response, the IRUs that are created are designed for that level of response. If more funding is required, this is something that the Minister of National Defence will be talking about with his counterparts.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

The Department of Public Safety administers and adjudicates the disaster financial assistance arrangements with the provinces after they've gone through and paid for all the damages that were done, and paid municipalities as well as individuals for damage caused by natural disaster. Your department then makes the final decision on how that cheque is cut.

Is there any thought ever given, or does the power exist, to also withhold dollars that were spent on fighting that through the Canadian Armed Forces, rather than passing that on to the province?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

There used to be, but we as a government decided that we weren't going to pass on those costs to the province. We want to make sure that in a time of emergency, we can give confidence to Canadians that we will respond.

That's something we have been doing ever since.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

By removing that requirement and not having the provinces pay for the deployment of the Canadian Armed Forces and their assets into natural disasters and Operation Lentus, by eating that rather than building it in to the DFAA payments, do you think that entices the provinces to call on the federal government to deploy Canadian Armed Forces more quickly, rather than taking the time and the dollars to think carefully about whether or not they actually want Canadian Armed Forces to come or if they would be better off investing in their own disaster capabilities, whether it is through purchasing new equipment or hiring more personnel?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

In the times when an emergency is taking place, I haven't been in a position where the financial side has ever been raised; it has always been about responding. I think it's important to Canadians to make sure that the response is there.

I would say that the provinces and territories have been looking and changing their plans. In fact, I was visiting Alberta, and I'm very impressed with the system they have in place. I know British Columbia has also significantly increased its response as well.

What we need to do is make sure the right types of resources and funding are in place at different levels of government. This is probably the most important piece. When an emergency takes place, the first response is actually at the local level. Then, we want to make sure that the province has the ability to respond and fill that gap. Then, at the federal level, we need to be ready if the provinces don't have the appropriate support.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Wouldn't you agree, Minister, that either if we had cost recovery through DFAA to pay for the assets, the time and the resources spent by the Canadian Armed Forces in fighting natural disasters when called under part VI of the National Defence Act, or if we could get it onto a cost-sharing basis, overall it would result in better equipment and better resources for both the provinces and the federal government?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

We can answer that question of better resources and better systems at the provincial levels through the lessons learned. The last thing I would want to do is put a caveat in there, where there's somebody in a province not wanting to make a request to the federal government because of a cost issue.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Bezan.

Mr. Collins, you have the final five minutes.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair. I want to pick up where Mr. Bezan left off.

My question to Minister Blair was about how we ensure that our provincial and municipal partners are coming to the table with the appropriate level of resources.

I've come from the municipal sector. I spent 26 years on Hamilton's city council, and we went through an annual process as it relates to our emergency preparedness plan. We needed to have sufficient resources in order to ensure that when called upon and needed to implement that plan, we were sufficiently prepared.

My question, Minister, would be this: How do you coordinate with the other minister to ensure that our provincial partners are coming to the table with the appropriate level of resources?

The minister was very clear. He used the example of responding to long-term care facilities in Ontario during the pandemic, where we weren't the last call—

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I was the MND at that time. I remember it well.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

—we were the first call in that instance. We should be the last call.

I think that issue, specifically, speaks to provincial cuts. It speaks to some of the issues that the province, through different political stripes and different governments, has struggled with over the years in terms of long-term care facilities. I think it speaks to the whole issue of not being prepared.

On that issue, can I get your opinion in terms of the role the federal government plays in terms of ensuring—maybe providing some healthy tension with other levels of government—they are sufficiently providing resources to their plans and to the implementation of those plans?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

It is a great question. I would say the reality of those emergencies has sobered, I think, all Canadians, especially at the provincial level.

What I would then say is that they have to have the right resources at the right time. Asking from the federal level, where you have a delayed response, doesn't actually help the people on the ground. The conversation we're having, depending on the type of emergency, is about what resources are needed at what level. That's going to be the driving force for who needs to invest in what.

I think, in our federation, the provinces have responsibility for their emergency response, and they need to have that, because you can't have a standardized response. Canada is unique, province by province, and even within provinces. That's where that conversation needs to go. It's saying if you don't invest in that area, the response will not be there for Canadians.

I would say the pandemic has sobered the leadership across the country.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Minister Blair was very clear in providing information about the budgets for the Canadian Armed Forces related to Operation Lentus. Those numbers have increased, based on the number of times we were required to respond.

Can I ask your ministry, in particular, how the budget process has changed internally and what additional resources your ministry has brought to the table, understanding that these occurrences are happening more often and that there's a requirement for more personnel, more equipment and, by extension, more planning?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

There a couple of things to that question. One is that we have been seized with the whole climate disaster for some time. When the Prime Minister created this portfolio, he wanted to put a direct emphasis on putting a minister in charge of ensuring that we have the preparedness. As Minister Blair started this work, it was about having not just the response, but also that preparedness piece that needs to be there.

Looking across the board, we're looking at what the funding needs are for prevention on the mitigation side. If we have the type of disaster, we need to have the response.

As well, when we talk about the response, we're going to exercise it. We're going to stress-test that as well, to make sure it can work, and we're going to stress-test in a way that isn't just looking at one or two types of disasters, but multiple types of scenarios.

What, then, does recovery look like, and how do you take those lessons, learn from them and build that resiliency back in? That's how we're planning our budget requests.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

Very quickly, many witnesses who have come to committee have suggested that another service be created. We've seen the European example. Some have alluded to the U.S. in creating another area to respond to these events.

How does that work with some of the cost issues and financial budget issues we just talked about? I wonder how that works if the federal government creates, manages and oversees it.

How do we avoid paying for everything in a situation whereby, right now, most of the costs should be and are borne by the provinces and territories?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

First of all, I think we need to make sure that we have the right response at all levels. We owe it to Canadians in a time of need to have that response.

One thing I can say is that for every dollar spent in prevention, it's $7 saved. If we don't, we're going to be paying for it in many other ways. In a disaster financial assistance arrangement, those numbers have been staggering, just over the last 10 years. Each level of government, right down to the municipal level, needs to look at what type of work needs to be done.

I would say that municipalities are coming on board. The provinces have also started to step up. I haven't had any significant push-back on what is actually needed.

What we need to do is make sure—just to say this again—that we have the right resources in the right place at the right time. Creating a federal agency is something. We are looking at various other options right now. We're at a very premature level. It would be premature to discuss it any further.

If we have a resource at the federal level and it's too slow to respond, then we're not responding. We need to make sure it is at the right level, so we're going through the discussions now.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Mr. Collins.

This has been a rich discussion. Mr. Bezan and Mr. Collins raised, if you will, the moral hazard question. It's probably something we haven't thought about a great deal, but if in fact the provinces think they can call on CAF resources and it will be a free ride, then they're going to keep on calling on the CAF resources and thinking it's a free ride. It's unfair to the CAF, because it's their resources that are being put in for the specific benefit of a province. Across government it's also unfair, because those resources are deployed while maybe they should be deployed in other areas.

I thank you for your responses to all the questions, but for the last two questions I thought we were kind of getting into it.

With that, colleagues, we will adjourn.