National Defence Committee on Dec. 7th, 2023

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I'm a member of the—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have seven seconds to answer that question.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I'm a member of the Ukraine contact group. I want to assure you that among all of our NATO allies, I know from my conversations with Secretary of Defense Austin that his support for Ukraine and the importance of supplying Ukraine to hold back that Russian aggression and the challenge to the rules-based order remain absolutely resolute. We are concerned with some of the other noise we're hearing, but among our allies, we're solid.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Collins.

Madame Normandin, you have slightly over three minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Minister, I'd like to come back to the establishment of the Canadian Military Colleges Review Board, which will review their role. If a decision is made about the role of military colleges, I hope it will be related to cultural change rather than financial considerations.

Has the department ever done any comparative studies on the costs associated with changing the role of military colleges? For example, we could decide to send officer cadets to civilian universities.

Have you ever assessed what the additional spending or savings would be?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I anticipate that this review panel will make significant and important recommendations to us. This is in direct response to recommendations 28 and 29 in the Arbour report.

When she made those recommendations, she made the observation that closing those military colleges would be a lost opportunity. I agree with that, because there is much benefit that can come from them. However, she also clearly articulated that there needs to be a significant cultural change in those institutions, because some of the behaviours and experiences, particularly of women and minorities going through our military colleges, are unacceptable and need to change.

When we get the recommendations back, I don't want to speculate or deal with hypotheticals, but I am quite prepared. There is great value in the panel's work. The recommendations will be very important to us. If the recommendation is that we need to invest more in those colleges in order to effect a permanent and sustainable cultural change, I'll come looking for those resources.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

With all due respect, you didn't answer my question.

I wouldn't want changes at the military colleges to be based on financial considerations. I was wondering if you had assessed the costs associated with various role change scenarios for military colleges, including a scenario aimed squarely at their closure. Officer cadets would then be sent to civilian universities.

Has the financial impact of each scenario been assessed, yes or no?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

The answer is no. That work has not yet been done. I don't have the results of the panel's work. When it comes back to us with recommendations, that assessment will take place.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madame Normandin.

Ms. Mathyssen, you have two and a half minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Recently the CBC came out with a report on the training and weapons that Canadian Armed Forces was providing to war criminals in Iraq. Canadian soldiers tried to warn their superiors in Ottawa about what they were seeing. War criminals were showing them videos and bragging about gruesome torture, rape, and extrajudicial killings. Apparently an investigation was done, and you have been quoted as saying that you were supportive of it, yet it was not an independent investigation.

Certainly we should ideally learn from what had occurred with the Somalia affair and those cover-ups when there was a lack of transparency and a suppression of what soldiers were trying to tell superior officers.

Do you see the importance, in this case specifically, of putting forward an independent investigation so that when soldiers come forward with these sorts of protests over training war criminals, we can trust there would be a truly investigative process that is independent?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

That isn't quite a complete explanation of everything that transpired.

The actual event took place in 2018. It was investigated and dealt with at that time. The issue was then raised again by CBC, I believe, in 2021. At that time, the chief of the defence staff instructed the military police and the JAG to review everything that had taken place three years earlier.

That was when I was asked if I had confidence that this was done appropriately and thoroughly. I said yes, because the matter had been reviewed fairly extensively. In 2021, decisions were made and corrective action was taken to ensure that there was greater clarity on what everyone's responsibility was under the circumstances that had apparently transpired in 2018. The determination was made at that time on what actions were appropriate, and they were taken.

The matter came forward again as a result of media reporting. I was asked if I believed the action taken in 2021 had been appropriate, and I do.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Ultimately, these soldiers, though, are experiencing a great deal of trauma. Clearly, this has not been resolved in their eyes. Do you not see that as a problem?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I think that for any soldier who has experienced trauma, we have a responsibility to provide them with support. I believe that should be made available and is being made available to them.

Your question was not about the trauma that those individuals experienced, but rather about how the matter was dealt with.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Ultimately, having to live with the fact that they further trained and armed war criminals is part of their trauma and part of the investigation they're asking for.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're going to have to leave it there.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Again, the trauma should be dealt with appropriately. I agree 100% with that.

I was asked specifically about whether or not the actions taken in 2021, when this matter was brought forward, were appropriate. I have been briefed on that and I believe they were.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.

Mr. Kelly, go ahead for five minutes.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you.

Minister, Admiral Topshee said we may fail to meet our force posture and operational commitments in 2024.

I'll ask you, as minister, this question: Will we fail to meet our force posture and operational commitments in 2024?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I think Admiral Topshee was outlining concerns about our state of readiness—

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

He was quite specific.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

He said that we may. The next question that had to be asked—and I've asked it—is what we must then do in order to ensure we do not fail to meet our operational readiness commitments.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Will cutting a billion dollars from the defence budget help us meet our operational commitments?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

To be absolutely certain, we're not cutting anything from the operational readiness budgets of the Canadian Armed Forces. We're looking at things like professional services and consulting. That does not impact the delivery of those ships, the maintenance of the Halifax-class fleet or our recruitment and retention efforts.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Are there a billion dollars in corporate travel and consultants' fees that you're going to cut in the department?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

There are. We looked first at professional services.

By the way, not all professional services can be cut. It's over a billion dollars, and in fact many of those services are providing maintenance on our bases and health services, etc.