National Defence Committee on Dec. 7th, 2023

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Okay, so there are a billion dollars in—

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Mr. Kelly, let me finish the sentence.

We're looking very carefully, first of all, at professional services, consulting fees and executive travel. By executive travel, to be clear, I'm talking about any travel that does not involve moving troops to mission or training opportunities and things like that. That's necessary, and we're not impacting that in any way.

There is other travel within the Canadian Armed Forces and the Department of National Defence that we're looking at to see if we can find savings if we change the way we book that travel or if the number of people travelling or the manner in which they travel can be altered. We're looking for savings there.

We're also looking at a number of other important processes of administration in our procurement and in the way in which we administer our HR systems and payroll systems.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Okay, let's talk about procurement, then—

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

There are opportunities for efficiencies. I would be surprised if you would be opposed to finding efficiencies in the way we spend the public's money.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Well, I'm concerned that after eight years, there are a billion dollars in consulting fees that are unnecessary and can be easily cut without affecting operational readiness.

Will the billion—

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

They're not easily cut. Again, my responsibility is to make sure that for every dollar we spend, we're producing real value.

The Treasury Board was very explicit to us. I want to share this with you, sir. It's important. None of the reductions the Treasury Board is seeking can impact CAF operations. I've added my own caveat to that because I don't want it to impact the supports and the services that we provide to the members of the Canadian Armed Forces.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

When he was here beside you two weeks ago, the chief of the defence staff would not affirm that this could be done without impacting operational readiness.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

He has every responsibility to express his concern, and we're working right alongside him and his team to make sure we do not impact their operational readiness.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you.

Last week, you admitted to Global News that there is a serious production problem with ammunition. On September 28, General Eyre told this committee that there has been no increase in ammunition production, particularly of 155-millimetre shells, since the invasion. The war in Ukraine has been going on since 2014, but the invasion was a year and a half ago now.

You just told this committee that you increased the ammunition order by four times. Where will this ammunition come from, if there is no increase in production?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Let me perhaps add a bit of clarification for you.

Earlier this year, the Department of National Defence provided $4.3 million to IMT Defence to ramp up their ability to produce M107 155-millimetre projectiles from 3,000 to 5,000 per month. There are also a number of other programs we're funding: General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems has almost $2 million towards updating automation for production of the M795 projectiles and an initial $2 million to demonstrate combustible cartridge case manufacturing capability for the 155s.

We are significantly investing in Canadian industry—

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

When will the deliveries begin?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

As I said today, we just placed an order for four times more ammunition next year than what we were able to receive this year.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Okay. That's an announcement. When will the delivery occur?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Well, that is a question you may want to take some time with—

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

We have him after you're done.

You have another 25 seconds, so go ahead.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

It's been ordered for delivery next year. It will be delivered next year.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Kelly.

Mr. Fillmore, you have the final five minutes.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, Lieutenant-General, Deputy Minister—

I think there's an open mic in the room somewhere.

It was great to see you at the Halifax International Security Forum last month, where, by the way, you announced funding to stand up DIANA. Thank you for that.

Those are the two things I want to talk about: the Halifax International Security Forum, or HISF, and DIANA.

Having attended HISF for nearly a decade now, I've been able to see first-hand the value it brings to the world's democracies in addressing and solving the challenges we all face together. Of course, there's a great benefit to Canada as the host nation and to Halifax as the host city.

At the same time, and complementary to that, is DIANA. As Mr. Fisher pointed out, it's something that Atlantic Canada wouldn't have even thought possible a decade or so ago. Our productivity and skilled labour supply lagged behind the rest of the country. In the past decade, we've seen a huge turnaround. In fact, the Public Policy Forum has called this “an explosion of innovation led by a new generation of entrepreneurs”. In fact, in Atlantic Canada our GDP per capita and growth in education attainment have outpaced the national average since 2015. DIANA is the reason we were successful in our “team Atlantic” effort to land DIANA in Halifax. It's because of this change in the ground rules.

Here are these two important things, yet HISF and DIANA are going to be voted on in the coming hours. It's unfortunate that our Conservative colleagues are poised to vote against both of them.

I'd like to ask all of you—whoever would like to respond—about the value HISF brings to the Canadian Armed Forces and our role in the world, and the same question about DIANA.

What is the importance of the innovation in the defence and peacekeeping space that will come out of DIANA? What is important there for our role in the world?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thanks very much, Andy.

First of all, that was the first time I had ever had the opportunity to attend the Halifax International Security Forum. It's an extraordinary forum. It was a place of dialogue and exchange with international partners. The bilats that I was able to attend with international partners from across Canada and around the world were really quite extraordinary. I think it's an incredibly important forum.

I also wanted to acknowledge the members of this committee. We had the largest parliamentary delegation, from all parties, at the HISF in its 15-year history.

I think the participation of Canadian parliamentarians from all parties is critically important. As part of that, we saw a great delegation from the U.S., but it was matched by an equally great delegation from Canada. I think that was very important.

It is the largest international security forum held in a democratic country that only democratic countries attend. I think it did facilitate. It creates an opportunity for dialogue that can't occur in any other place. It strengthens relationships and it strengthens partnerships and I think it strengthens resolve. We learn from each other, and the country and the world are made safer places, particularly for democracies, as a result of the dialogue that takes place at HISF.

It's a really valuable thing, and I think Halifax is exactly the right place for it, by the way. Halifax is, for the Canadian Armed Forces, its birthplace and heartbeat in many respects. I had the opportunity to visit the Irving shipyard, for example, where we're building our Arctic and offshore patrol ships, and where we're going to be building the new surface combatant ship. I got to meet with the workforce there. It's energized, enthusiastic, and in exactly the right place.

Situating DIANA in Halifax also makes perfect sense for us, but it's not just an opportunity for Halifax; it's an opportunity for Canada and it's an opportunity for NATO to continue to be innovative and to attract new ideas, new approaches.

One of the things we've seen with a significantly increasingly dangerous world is innovation and new challenges coming from our potential adversaries, particularly Russia and China. The only way we're going to keep up is if we energize and support innovators in free countries. DIANA plays an incredibly important role in that.

If I could also mention it, there was one other thing I got to announce when I was in Halifax, and it's a new $155-million investment in a new training facility for CFB Halifax. When I went out to Halifax and visited with Admiral Topshee, he showed me the training facilities and he explained the need for us to do more and do better, so we're now funding the building of a new training facility in Halifax. Again, it's the right place to do it and the right thing to do.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Fillmore, and thank you to the Halifax Chamber of Commerce once again.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I've become a big fan.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You might become a charter member of the Halifax Chamber of Commerce if Mr. Fillmore has his way.

With that, colleagues, we'll suspend while we allow the minister to leave. Then we'll re-empanel, but I'll need guidance from members.

Bells are supposed to start at 5:15. If we're going to put in an hour with the other witnesses, I'll need unanimous consent to go to 5:30. Is that acceptable?

I see that 5:15 is fine. What about the rest? We don't have unanimous consent to do anything other than go until the bells, so we have 45 minutes.

Thank you, Minister Blair, for your attendance. You can stay for another 45 minutes if you wish.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I'm trying to talk quietly so as to not.... I really enjoy sitting and talking to these people.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

It's nice of us to give you the opportunity to talk to your staff.

I'm assuming, Mr. Matthews, you have no further opening statements, so we'll continue on with the—

Who needs to join the table?

Mr. St-Pierre, welcome to the committee.

Okay. We're now into our second hour and the second round. I have Ms. Gallant for the first six minutes.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you. Are we going to have testimony first or are we continuing?

DND is still operating on DRMIS, a 30-year-old program. A replacement system, DefenceX, is already an entire year behind. With a budget size upwards of a billion dollars, will the DefenceX system also be hit with the Liberal cut to the defence budget?