National Defence Committee on March 2nd, 2022

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here. I certainly appreciate the expertise you're providing to our committee today. I also want to thank you for the role you have played in COVID-19 with the distribution of vaccines. I have to tell you that I'm very, very proud of our Canadian Armed Forces.

Mr. Motz talked about capacity and about capability. I'm curious about the Canadian capabilities we are offering to Ukraine and NATO and whether they supplement what other allies are bringing forward. I'm thinking about the coordination and the areas where Canada maybe has more capacities than some of our other allies or maybe more capability. What do we bring to the table as compared with some of our other allies?

I guess that's for you, Admiral.

[VAdm J.R. Auchterlonie]

I think you hit it on the head when you talked about allies. This is not Canada in isolation; this is Canada working with our allies and partners around the globe.

Specifically on this, we've been working with our partners in Ukraine since 2015 to support the Ukrainian armed forces and assist in the training of the Ukrainian armed forces. At this particular time, we're now working with our NATO partners to consolidate and support not only the Ukrainians but actually the NATO alliance.

I think my colleague Vice-Admiral Bishop, who will be up here next, is probably the most suited to talk about the NATO alliance. He's actually our Canadian military rep in NATO right now.

The fact to highlight is that it is a partnership, working with our allies and partners, to ensure the provision of support across the NATO alliance and to make sure we actually have the capabilities required by NATO to deter, shield and, if necessary, defend.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much for that.

When you think about the Canadian Armed Forces, you think about peacekeepers; certainly for decades. Under the current and what you see as the future threat environment, what does that mean for the design or the transition of the Canadian Armed Forces? You know, you think about cyber, peacekeeping, combat, training, foreign interference, misinformation—it's a different world from even five, six, or seven years ago when we were on this defence committee.

[VAdm J.R. Auchterlonie]

Again, Mr. Chair, that's a great question.

Really, the question is what capability Canada has to have, not necessarily the Canadian Armed Forces. I'll just expand on that.

I think what you're seeing play out today is nations using all instruments of national power, and then the military having capabilities across all warfare domains. In terms of international power, it's about making sure that our diplomatic efforts are aligned with our military efforts, our economic efforts and our information efforts. You're seeing information and disinformation being used globally right now—and I'll turn to my colleague, Major-General Wright, for that—but the point is that all aspects of national power are being used to coalesce.

On the military side, what we're talking about is exactly as you've just said. The world has changed in the past few decades. It's no longer a fight on just the land, sea and air; you're seeing an all-domain fight. This includes the traditional domains of land, sea and air, where you need capabilities across all, plus you're seeing significant cyber activity, significant activity in space and significant activity in the information domain. The cyber domain, the space domain and the information domain are all contested domains, just like the land, sea and air.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm going to stop it there.

Madame Normandin, you have for four minutes, please.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Vice-Admiral, thank you for being here and, more importantly, thank you for your service.

When the government sent 100 or 125 Carl Gustafs—the number varies depending on the source—apparently it delved into the units' inventory. I'd like some clarifications on that.

Did we really take from the inventory of training schools to send equipment to Ukraine?

[VAdm J.R. Auchterlonie]

Thank you, again, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Madam, for the question. It's a great question.

When we're talking about the capabilities we're going to provide to the Ukraine, these capabilities are coming from Canada as decided by the Government of Canada. With respect to your question—are these taken out of the training system?—these are actually stocks we hold within the Canadian Armed Forces.

Decisions have been made to actually furnish these to the Armed Forces of Ukraine for their use in the conflict with Russia. They have been taken from Canadian Forces stocks, and we are working at right now to move them.

There are other considerations. As you've seen, the Government of Canada has made several announcements recently. You've seen our minister and the Prime Minister make announcements with respect to support to Ukraine. This is but one of them, and we are intending to meet that requirement.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

That brings me to a second question.

We've noticed how important it is out in the field to have modern weapons like Javelin anti-tank missiles and Stinger anti-aircraft weapons. I understand that, while they are useful and operational, the Carl Gustaf weapons are a bit more outdated.

Does Canada have what it takes to fight a conventional war, if necessary?

[VAdm J.R. Auchterlonie]

Thank you again, Madam, and thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a great question.

Canada's is providing significant aid. You've seen the aid we provided, both lethal and non-lethal. That has been provided to Ukraine already, with two deliveries, which I think have been publicly broadcast. In addition, right now we are looking at other options to provide further military equipment that is within our arsenal, that is modern and capable of defeating the Russian forces if used by the Ukrainians. This is something the government is looking at right now to make sure we're providing aid. I have to say that this is not in isolation. We are working with allies and partners globally. I think you've seen the allies and partners all looking to provide Ukraine with capable equipment and the capabilities they need to support their sovereignty.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

My question has more to do with Canada's ability to undertake a conventional war.

What we're seeing in the field is, it is useful and necessary. Do we not sufficient resources to undertake a conventional war or do we have everything we need?

[VAdm J.R. Auchterlonie]

Thank you, again, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Madam, for the question.

We're talking about the capabilities, and we're talking about whether they're sufficient to support the Ukrainians, and they are. That's why we're offering those capabilities, as are our allies.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

With all due respect, Vice-Admiral, I'm not asking if Canada has everything it needs to support the Ukrainians, but rather if Canada has everything it needs to undertake a conventional war.

[VAdm J.R. Auchterlonie]

Okay.

We are looking not only to support Ukraine, but also to ensure that we have the capabilities within our brigades and within our armed forces moving forward, and we do. We have identified equipment to support the Ukrainians, while at the same time ensuring that we have the capabilities available for Canada.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madame Normandine.

We have Madam Mathyssen for four minutes, please.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you so much to both the witnesses and for your service. I repeat what all my colleagues, I know, feel in terms of that support.

I want to expand on what Madame Normandin was talking about in a conversation about the necessary tools required. Minister Anand stated that we've been watching Russian escalation for months. I wanted to ask about that current state of surveillance, specifically the necessary tools, and then of course what we're going to be putting into NORAD, the equipment and improvements in investments that we'll be making in it.

[MGen Michael Wright]

Mr. Chair, perhaps I could take the first part of that question regarding how we've been tracking the situation in Ukraine over the past several months, because that really highlights the importance of the relationships with our allies, particularly the Five Eyes.

It was about the middle of October that we in the Five Eyes started to receive reporting of the extremely large buildup of Russian forces surrounding Ukraine. As you saw, over the course of December, January and February, a large amount of what had been highly classified intelligence was actually declassified by the originators, for the most part by the United States, to provide that to the international community to show them that what Russia was doing and that this war, this invasion, was completely the choice of Vladimir Putin.

[VAdm J.R. Auchterlonie]

Thank you, Madam, for the question. I'll talk specifically about continental defence and NORAD [Technical difficulty—Editor]. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, the rise of strategic competition, changing threats on the continent and the effects of climate change and the growing importance of the Canadian Arctic require us to strengthen our domestic and our continental defences. I think this is what you're talking about.

We're already investing in personnel, equipment and infrastructure to support this effort, and Canada and the United States are also working together to modernize the North American Aerospace Defense Command.

Last year in late August Canada and the United States issued a joint statement identifying the four shared priorities for NORAD moving forward in terms of strengthening situational awareness; modernizing command and control systems; enhancing capabilities and infrastructure, particularly in the Arctic; and advancing research development innovation.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Canada has been a part of the calls for the International Criminal Court to investigate what's going on in the Ukraine. We're seeing a rise in destruction, of course, targeting civilians. Through that intelligence gathering and that surveillance, are we documenting the attacks on civilians? How are we doing that right now with the Russian forces?

[MGen Michael Wright]

Mr. Chair, one thing I can tell you is that the intelligence community, specifically the Five Eyes, but also NATO and all other intelligence communities with like-minded nations, are looking very closely at the resources we have. It's challenging in that we have no resources on the ground, but through a combination of geospatial intelligence, signals intelligence and all the other disciplines of closely tracking any illegal “contrary to law” of armed conflict activities that may be undertaken by Russian forces....

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I hope I can fit this in.

A lot of people who have come to this committee for this study have talked about China's watching this situation and the response by western countries to the Ukrainian conflict.

Do you believe that our response so far has given China pause or has impacted their reaction in any way?

[MGen Michael Wright]

Mr. Chair, I would say that prior to a week ago we were very concerned about China, in fact, wondering if China would take the opportunity to accelerate their own plans for greater control of their “near abroad”, specifically Taiwan.

I would hope that with the reaction of the international community, specifically NATO and the west, that China would have given pause to any of their authoritarian plans in the future.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.

That completes the first round of questions.

I have to suspend in two minutes and 54 seconds.

Colleagues, what I think we should do at this point is release Admiral Auchterlonie. I don't know about General Wright's plans.

Then we will go off to vote, or stay to vote, as the case may be, then resume as quickly as we can after the vote is made.

Is that a satisfactory procedure for all?

Okay.

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

Mr. Chair, would it be possible to invite General Wright to the second panel?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Are you available, General Wright?