National Defence Committee on Feb. 5th, 2024

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Thanks for that.

I just want to make sure that the record's clear here. When Mr. Bezan invited you to agree with him that the Minister of National Defence misled Parliament on the point that no CAF members were living in tents, you agreed with him that Parliament was misled. I just want to offer you a chance to clarify that if you'd like to.

[Gregory A. Lick]

What I am hearing is that some members, at different points in time, have been or are homeless. I don't believe they've actually told me what they are living in. They are living in RVs or are couch surfing in some cases. One dependent told me that they were homeless for five months. They were living somewhere, obviously, but not in a proper home.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Okay, that's fair enough. Thank you very much for that.

I'm going to shift gears.

The committee heard some testimony from one military spouse, Alyssa Truong—I think it's okay to say her name—regarding the challenges that spouses face during periods of relocation. She, in particular, raised concerns around spousal employment, which has already come up a bit today. Spousal employment can be made more difficult because of delays in the transferring of relevant documentation like drivers' licences, health care cards, professional credentials—those kinds of things.

I'm just wondering if you can share any solutions you might have unearthed in your work with regard to this issue of how we can better support the spousal side of the equation when spouses are required to move across the country.

[Gregory A. Lick]

I'll give you two examples.

One is on the medical qualifications side. Medical qualifications are governed or licenced—however it works—provincially and territorially by the different medical associations. There needs to be more work done to understand and provide equivalencies. This is even for all Canadians, not just for military members or families. If there was a better system of understanding those qualifications and providing equivalencies so that they were more easily transferrable, that would be a good thing for all of Canada, not just for military members.

At the same time, I think one of the things we have noted is the military spouse employment initiative within DND. It is a tool they market, but it is primarily marketed within DND. I think I've talked with Canadian—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm sorry to keep interrupting you at the end, but we seem to be rolling past—

[Gregory A. Lick]

Can I finish this one point? It is important.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm sure it is.

[Gregory A. Lick]

In this case, they need to do better marketing outside, both to other federal departments and to provincial departments.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Thanks very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Ms. Normandin, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Lick, I would like to touch on a slightly more technical issue. If you can't answer, that's fine.

In November, I asked Brigadier‑General Virginia Tattersall to send me the market studies carried out to establish the separation expenses for military members on imposed restriction.

When I asked different people about this, I realized that the amount allocated to military members for housing has dropped in a number of places. In Saint‑Jean, for example, the decrease amounts to about $400. The same is true for Bagotville, where we know that there's a housing shortage.

Has this situation been brought to your attention? Are we right to feel that the Department of National Defence is sometimes a bit disconnected from the reality of the rental market around military bases?

[Gregory A. Lick]

In terms of the fees, Brigadier-General Tattersall probably brought that forward. I'm not exactly sure which fee she was talking about. We'll assume it was the CFHD.

In that regard, the CFHD was set up to accommodate or mitigate some of the issues with housing and the cost of housing in the community. At the same time, they recognized in the end that they needed to have a transition of that particular benefit. That's why there is a phased-in approach to that.

That may have been what she was talking about in that regard. The fees changed, but there is a transition.

As to the other part of it, I don't think the leadership is disconnected, but I come back to this idea that.... When I talk to the leadership on bases and wings, they are not disconnected. They understand what's going on there.

To understand what is happening across the entire country, that is probably the bigger issue. As I said, you have to listen to all the various sources of information, and not just that formal wellness check.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

My question wasn't about the Canadian Forces housing differential, but about another benefit. In any case, I don't mind, but I gather that I won't have time to ask any more questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Good decision, Madame Normandin.

Madam Mathyssen, you have two and a half minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

To go back to that expansion of housing stock around or near bases and having all options on the table, there is an ability to develop underdeveloped lands owned by the federal government. Municipalities have raised this concern. We could transfer some of those lands specifically to not-for-profit housing organizations and co-operatives that could develop them. There are all kinds of lower-cost and more affordable housing options.

In terms of affordable housing, can you elaborate on the initiatives you've seen, if any, or discussions you've had with ministry officials about that specifically going forward?

[Gregory A. Lick]

When visiting Greenwood, as one of the last examples, I talked with representatives of the municipality. They were looking for how to get in contact with the department to discuss—whether it was a transfer of land or not—using unused land to build affordable housing and have more housing available for military families and so on.

I put them in contact with them, because I knew some of the people in the department. I don't know the outcome of those discussions at all, but I put them in contact with them.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

On the one side, municipalities or those associated with them are very excited, but you haven't heard on the other side whether there's been a response or any kind of acceptance to move on that.

[Gregory A. Lick]

Because it's relatively recent, I haven't heard the outcome of those particular discussions. I think there's a lot of opportunity there. It may not be the same in every base and wing across the country, but some have a greater ability to do that than others.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Would you recommend to the Department of National Defence that it take advantage of these conversations?

[Gregory A. Lick]

It's a recommendation to the government writ large. We have a lot of unused land that can probably help out in different ways with different solutions or different partnerships—whatever it might be. I would say there are a lot of opportunities to look at and implement various innovative solutions. Let's just keep looking at them.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.

Mr. Kelly, you have five minutes.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Minister of Defence is apparently clinging to the wellness check system as proof that the Halifax emergency management coordinator and the Canadian Legion were not being truthful in reporting the homelessness of Canadian Armed Forces members in Halifax.

Do you believe the Halifax emergency management coordinator and the Canadian Legion that there are indeed homeless CAF members?

[Gregory A. Lick]

Well, as I said, I don't rely on one source of information either. I listened to that particular testimony, and what I hear from members and families is the same thing, so that's pretty clear to me.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Right. So not only is that testimony credible, but it's supported by other sources of information you have from the numerous discussions you have had with CAF members.