National Defence Committee on Feb. 26th, 2024

[Gregory Lick]

As I think I've said a number of times, it would be legislation and various pieces in legislation that would stop me and my staff from being compelled, mandated timelines, and the ability to escalate beyond the political government in power to the national institution, Parliament, which represents all Canadians and the defence community. That would be the right thing to do.

Those are the three elements that I think are important. You can put all sorts of different things in the legislation. Every ombudsperson who has legislation acts in a different way, but I think those are the three principles that I would include in legislation.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madam Normandin.

Madam Mathyssen, you have six minutes, please.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you both for attending today.

Mr. Lick, when the deputy minister, Bill Matthews, appeared for this study, he said that he had loosened some of the financial controls related to the administration of your office. Is that the case?

[Gregory Lick]

No.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Have you experienced a loosening of the department's control of human resources in your office?

[Gregory Lick]

No, and that area is most problematic for our office. We experience it almost every day. There are so many controls on our office that I would say are not appropriate. They're not illegal by any means; they're just not appropriate.

One of the principles of ombudsmanry around the world is that we should be able to hire the people we believe are best able to do the job. However, there are so many HR controls on our office that we're not able to do that as best as we think we should be able to.

Robyn can provide you with a current case in which we have to redo a process because they made a mistake in one of their controls.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

In terms of controls related to the administration of your office, was that what your predecessor faced as well?

[Gregory Lick]

I believe that my predecessor faced different controls and different issues, probably more severe than what we're experiencing now, but in essence it still continues. One of the issues is that this changes from deputy minister to deputy minister, and that should not be the case, unless there is a government-wide process or a particular issue we are doing incorrectly.

We are subject to the same controls as every other public servant, but it's inappropriate when those controls affect our ability to do our job in an independent manner.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

When the minister came to this committee, I asked about Treasury Board cuts, and Mr. Kelly referenced them to Mr. Joshi.

Can you confirm, Mr. Lick, whether your budget, travel budget or anything else will be experiencing any of these cuts?

[Gregory Lick]

They have currently proposed cuts on the travel and contracting sides of our budget. They have not been implemented yet because the new fiscal year has not been implemented. We put forward our issues with them.

I don't sit on the committees that look at these particular issues, and that is rightly so because we are an independent office. We're not consulted in the same way that other senior leaders of the department are consulted, and that's problematic.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

The travel is in itself you going to visit complainants to see for yourself what is required.

[Gregory Lick]

That's correct.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

That will significantly impact the work you can do.

[Gregory Lick]

At this point, the proposed cuts should not significantly cut into the work, but we don't know sometimes until we get into it and find out there are issues we need to see to. For example, we might need to go to a base to investigate a particular issue. These types of situations appear during the year.

We don't think, at this point, that the cuts will be problematic, but at the same time, the issue is a perception of a lack of independence and a perception of interference.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Based on your experience, what changes need to be made to the administration of your offices?

[Gregory Lick]

I do repeat myself a bit, but I think legislation and the principles of legislation that I put forward and just talked about are one way of doing it.

I'm not saying that reporting to Parliament would make it any easier budget-wise, as other independent officers of Parliament experience, but I think the biggest thing, which is due to our constituents—the defence community we represent—is real independence and the perception of independence. It's absolutely vital. It's the idea that the department is not interfering in the work we do, whether that's through a travel cut or a contracting cut. It's also that perception.

However, the other part of it, as I talked about earlier, is the idea of confidentiality. My staff in particular and I need to be protected from not being compelled to stand up and testify in court or in front of an administrative process. That is vital not only for the independence of the office, but also for the critical principle of confidentiality so that our constituents feel comfortable and confident to come forward and tell us things that we can then look at.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Speaking to that, in 2021 you published a position paper entitled “Independent civilian oversight: The defence community deserves no less”. Can you table this paper with the committee today?

[Gregory Lick]

Absolutely.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Perfect. I believe it's about a lot of what you're speaking to today as well.

In your opening remarks, you talked about your retirement. I know many of us are very sad to see you go. Has the government begun the process of replacing you?

[Gregory Lick]

I have different feelings about leaving as well. I will say that, just to start off.

I've been looking at the assignment opportunities for my type of position—GIC opportunities. I have not seen anything there. I'm concerned at this point. July is not that far away, and a transparent process to select the best individual to represent the defence community and the work we do has not started. I do not want to leave the organization in a place without an ombudsman, but there's nothing going forward. Where is it?

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

The government hasn't circulated a job posting or anything like that. What are the options? Would they just choose from a list of previous applicants? What are the problems with that?

[Gregory Lick]

There is no list. As any public service selection process goes ahead, you have to say up front that you're going to create a list or pool of individuals you may use in the future. That was five years ago and there was no announcement like that.

The selection process I went through was very transparent. Anybody could apply. I think the same thing should occur going forward. We should not be selecting from a list that was never created before.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

However, one would—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.

Before I turn it over to Mrs. Gallant, you said something about stopping you and your staff from being compelled, so I asked the analysts what you meant by that. We don't know. Could you explain that to us?