National Defence Committee on April 10th, 2024

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

No. You asked who's in favour. I saw one hand up. I don't know if—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

In some respects, I was assuming this was a unanimous vote.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

We're voting on her amendment, and I oppose her amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I am confused. I apologize.

Give a show of hands. Those in favour of the amendment?

Those opposed?

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Now we're on the motion.

(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

We have 45 minutes left, as I counted. Do we want to complete a second round of questions?

When we left off, Ms. Mathyssen had finished her six minutes. Now we're on the five-minute round.

Mrs. Gallant, you have five minutes.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

To the witness, Mr. Chair, we're going on 100 days of this strike with these different bases. How is it affecting military readiness?

[Laurie Ogilvie]

I cannot answer that question. It's outside my area of responsibility.

What I can say is that all of the supports to military families have stayed completely intact. The employees of military family resource centres are not staffed with non-public funds, so there has been absolutely no impact to services to military families.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Okay. I went to military family services and they were already full to the brim with a waiting list of people long before this group went on strike. There is a shortage of day care and a shortage of many other things.

What has this strike cost CFMWS thus far, including flying managers across the country to fill in at the CANEX stores and that sort of thing? How much has it cost thus far?

[Laurie Ogilvie]

It's outside of my area of responsibility. I actually have no idea.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Okay.

Five or six different locals are being negotiated with right now. How many other sets of locals have to be negotiated with after this one?

[Laurie Ogilvie]

Again, that's outside of my area of responsibility. I'm not part of our HR department and I have absolutely no idea.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Is it more than one?

[Laurie Ogilvie]

I have no idea.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

You have no idea whether or not this is the only handful of locals that....

[Laurie Ogilvie]

I don't, because—

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Okay.

Many of your employees are married to military personnel, so they get posted from base to base as well. It's my understanding that when they get posted, it's not like they have a job at another base. They start applying when a job becomes available, but they get no standing whatsoever. They work their way up and maybe get above minimum wage over seven or eight years. Then their spouse gets transferred and they have to start all over at the bottom again at minimum wage.

Why isn't there something put out blanket-wide so there is some protection and so they know they have the possibility of a job—not losing their income because they don't have a job when their spouse is posted?

[Laurie Ogilvie]

That's exactly why we introduced the military spousal employment network. It's to allow military family members to access employment in advance of a posting—going to virtual career fairs, going to career coaches and all of that.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

All right.

The government has decided to hike the rent on our troops and increase the carbon tax by 23% in the same month.

Have our military families expressed concern about how they're going to afford these increased costs?

[Laurie Ogilvie]

Specific to those two things, I don't have any awareness.

However, I do know that military families access Support Our Troops when they are in financial distress. We are also working within CFMWS on financial literacy and financial counselling for military families to help them support themselves as they move through their military journey.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

When the spouses employed by your organization are posted and looking for work, it makes a difference in whether that family can even stay in the military if they don't have both incomes. This is impacting the forces' strength, which is diminishing every day. We're losing more soldiers than we're recruiting, and here we are in a very critical situation worldwide when we need our troops and forces.

With respect to housing, I was door knocking on Saturday in Petawawa. There were some empty homes, so I looked online to see what they were worth, and they're starting at about half a million dollars.

When you look at an individual who is married and who is a lower rank, how important do you think it is that the employee has an opportunity for a job?

Before you answer that, I'd like to have Mr. Bezan ask a question. I am giving my last minute to Mr. Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I want to thank our witness for being here.

I want to move a motion I gave notice of on Monday:

Given that in January 2023, Canada announced it would donate a National Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile System (NASAMS) to Ukraine worth $406 million; that on April 11, 2023, then defence minister Anita Anand said the NASAMS was en route to Ukraine; and that the NASAMS has not yet been delivered to Ukraine; that the committee invite the Minister of National Defence to provide a briefing on the current status of the NASAMS for Ukraine within 14 days.

I will speak to that motion.

As we know, Mr. Chair, Minister Anand made that statement on April 11, 2023, which was 12 months ago tomorrow. We know that in January of 2023, the government promised to send the NASAMS to help with air defence in Ukraine. Here we are, 15 months since that time, and Ukraine is fighting for its life.

It's reported today that Russian MiG fighters and Sukhoi bombers are flying unimpeded over the conflict area and bombing cities like Kharkiv, and it is unfortunate that we may be witnessing Kharkiv being razed to the ground the same way Russians pounded Mariupol.

It is unconscionable what the Russians are doing, but it is also an embarrassment for Canada to have promised to provide the defensive weapons that Ukraine needs and not deliver them. I think we need to have the minister come before us here to explain why the NASAMS hasn't been delivered, where the $406 million has gone, and why the system, as far as we know and from what we can tell in open source media, is not even getting built.

If we're going to stand with Ukraine, if we're going to ensure Ukraine's safety and security, if we're going to honour the promises we make and stand by those promises, then, for the love of God, we have to find out why the NASAMS hasn't been delivered.

Ukraine is begging for support and help. We suggested back in January through our leader, Pierre Poilievre, that we have 83,000 CRV7 rockets collecting dust and dander in Saskatchewan at the CF base there. Those rockets were requested by Ukraine. Why they haven't been sent yet is beyond me. They will also help push back the Russian barbarians who are flowing over the borders, killing Ukrainians and occupying Ukrainian territory.

I believe that all members want to see Ukraine succeed. All members want to see Ukraine save their citizens and push back these Russian invaders. They can't do that with just empty promises.

I'd ask, Mr. Chair, that we pass this motion to ask the minister to come before committee to give us an update of where we are with the NASAMS delivery, which should be a game-changer for Ukraine in protecting their skies from things like the Iranian-made kamikaze Shahed drones. They can protect their airspace from hypersonic cruise missiles, cruise missiles and other ballistic missiles that are coming across Ukraine. Russian fighters and bombers are now freely flying into their airspace, never mind the proliferation of drones that are being used as well.

Everything we can do to help Ukraine win this war is not just about empty promises: It's about being timely, it's about being sincere, and it's about being a dependable partner.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Bezan.

I'll recognize Mr. Collins, then Ms. Gallant and then Ms. Lambropoulos after I repeat what I said at the beginning of the meeting: It would have been helpful, out of respect for the witness and respect for the clerk, who does a lot of work to try to put these meetings together, if we had gone about it in an orderly fashion; however, the committee has chosen to ignore that injunction.

May I first of all let the witness go?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I apologize for the abuse of your time.

I just want to say, colleagues, that it's a heck of a lot of work on the part of the clerk to put these meetings together, and we are having difficulties that the witnesses—the potential witnesses—have noticed. If you want this committee to function in the future, you'll proceed in an orderly fashion.

With that, go ahead, Mr. Collins.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Mr. Chair—