National Defence Committee on April 10th, 2024

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thanks, Ms. Ogilvie, for attending today.

Brigadier-General Tattersall was here and talked about the challenges members face in relocating and some of the stresses this places on members and their families. It's not just an issue of availability and affordability of housing. There are all kinds of other spinning plates, so to speak, that follow our members, in terms of what they do with their personal vehicles or selling their houses. I was very impressed with the housing checklist you referenced in terms of trying to assist members.

We're looking for recommendations here today on how to improve the situation. How do we make that process less stressful for our members? It's not just about budgets; it's about policies and about finding partners to help in that process.

Can you provide recommendations in that regard, in terms of how we make it less stressful?

[Laurie Ogilvie]

Absolutely.

Two years ago, we introduced a family relocation guide. In that guide is a very comprehensive compilation of all the steps family members can take during relocation, even to the point when you're moving of considering whether you have a pet or whatever it happens to be.

We worked with military families who have experienced relocation and asked them what their stress points were and what they would have preferred to have when they were relocating. The guide is a living document, so it continually evolves as policies change or as more services become available.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

You mentioned child care services.

It's a challenge for everyone across the country. That's one of the reasons we implemented a program for $10-a-day day care. You highlighted that it's not a government service; it's one provided by the non-profit and for-profit sectors, largely administered through the provincial governments. It's an arm's-length situation for us, from a government perspective.

Can I ask how important it is to get to the point where the provincial governments build capacity in that sector, where there are no wait-lists, and where there's an ability to walk in a door in whatever region you happen to be in the country and be assured that when you need that service, it's there for you?

[Laurie Ogilvie]

Absolutely. That is the work we're doing with Seamless Canada. We meet twice a year with Seamless Canada, and there are three main topics: employment, education and, under education, access to child care.

We have been meeting frequently with them on the topic of child care and how provinces and territories can work with the Canadian Armed Forces to increase access for military families, especially when they're newly relocated to a community.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks for that.

Something I'm dealing with at another committee is the provincial governments. Some are more committed to that plan than others.

Can I ask what the average wait-list is for members trying to secure child care? I know it will be different in different parts of the country, but you have a housing wait-list, and we know the numbers there from previous testimony. Do you have any information to share in terms of how long families wait to secure a child care spot?

[Laurie Ogilvie]

I do. Unfortunately, I don't have it with me right now, but I'm happy to provide it after.

We have just concluded what's called a “community profile”. We've gone to every community where the larger Canadian Armed Forces groups and their families are located. We assessed what the actual usage is, what the delta is and what is available through the military family resource centres and in the community.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

That's great.

I'll switch gears to the relocation process at Brookfield.

We've heard in some previous testimony about how that process works. We had a representative here, if memory serves me right, from the company. I asked whether they undertake client satisfaction surveys after the moves, and their answer was no.

Do you feel that it would be useful to gauge the success of the service we offer to members and their families? Do you have any recommendations on how we can improve the service they provide to members, knowing it can be a bit of a touchy subject with those who have utilized it?

[Laurie Ogilvie]

I can't speak on behalf of Brookfield, but I can say that for the relocation study we conducted in 2018, we had almost 700 respondents. Through that survey, we were able to develop the relocation guide.

I can only speak on behalf of my organization, but I find that the work we do in getting the feedback from the actual users to then improve the services going forward is an incredibly helpful step.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Mr. Chair, do I have one more minute?

Can I ask about recommendations, then, for Brookfield? If it's back in front of us on another study, is there something we should be pressing it on in terms of improving its service?

We are purchasing those services. It's a private entity. It's not part of the government.

Can I ask you for recommendations in that regard?

[Laurie Ogilvie]

I'd feel uncomfortable providing recommendations for another service provider.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

That's fair enough.

[Laurie Ogilvie]

I'm sorry.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

That's okay.

My last question is about the supports that are provided by others outside of the government to our members. It's a broad network. You mentioned Support Our Troops as an example.

Are there others that provide assistance, and can you talk about their value in assisting members?

[Laurie Ogilvie]

Absolutely.

We work very closely with True Patriot Love in the provision of the supports they provide through their avenues. I also oversee Support Our Troops.

We try to connect with as many organizations as we possibly can to be able to expand the network of support for military and veteran families.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Ms. Ogilvie.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Ms. Normandin, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Ms. Ogilvie, thank you for being with us.

I want to start with the issue of transfers. I agree that it's not up to you to decide whether a soldier should be transferred or not, but I'd still like to hear your thoughts on the consequences you would face if, for example, there were fewer transfers or they happened less frequently.

To what extent would having fewer services to provide give you some breathing room? Would you see a positive impact in terms of the services required when military personnel are transferred, and what would be the order of magnitude in terms of the number of transfers?

[Laurie Ogilvie]

I think I fully understood your question. If I missed something, please let me know.

I'm going back to reference the relocation study that we did with military families. What military families told us during that relocation survey was that the longer the time they are in a particular community, the more they can establish those networks of care that are required and the more they can build equity in products.

I can't speak on behalf of the Canadian Armed Forces and I can't speak on the duration or frequency of postings, but what I can say is what military families have told us—and again, this is one study—which is that the longer you can be in a community, the better, because it's about establishing....

I can give one example, if that's okay. It's around access to child care and the length of time on a wait-list. Quite often, families will get to a community, put their name on a wait-list for child care access and actually have to leave the community before they've been provided access.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

I'd like to know if Canadian Forces Morale and Welfare Services, or CFMWS, has done any studies or collected data on such things as the unemployment rate among military spouses by region or access to medical care.

Do we know how many family members may or may not have access to medical care? Has CFMWS collected and compiled any data on that?

[Laurie Ogilvie]

Yes. We collect the data. The way we work with the military family resource centres is that we've put in place metrics for them to provide information back. They feed that back to us. We do it in different ways.

We also conduct community needs assessments to understand what the community needs are. With the MFRCs, we ask them to tell us where their biggest issues are placed so that we can adjust funding based on what their particular needs are.

For example, in some communities, we'll provide access to funding to support medical travel if it's a very long distance from where the family is located. We'll provide it to that community, whereas if it's not an issue in other communities, that funding won't be provided there.

It's a matter of looking at the unique characteristics of each community and then adjusting how we're providing the support to each community.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

We know that it's not easy to get medical care and child care services. Access to schooling in a family's mother tongue can sometimes be a problem.

I'd like to hear what you have to say about military families outside Quebec.

Have you received any complaints or are you aware of any complaints filed anywhere, perhaps with the ombud, involving francophone children whose parents are outside Quebec?

For example, it's so complicated to find a French-language school that children are simply sent to an English-language school. Is that a comment you often hear? Do you have any statistics on that?

[Laurie Ogilvie]

That's absolutely what we hear.

About a year and a half ago, we stood up an education cell within military family services. In that education cell, we have guidance counsellors who provide navigation support for families as they are transitioning from community to community. It's especially for children and finding access to schooling in their primary language.

We also provide tutoring support for military children, especially around language training. We have access to second language training through our military family services program as well. That's through Pour l'amour du français/For the Love of English and Rosetta Stone, so families have access.

What we're finding most is that for francophone families who are moving to predominantly anglophone communities, and vice versa, our guidance counsellors will provide the navigational support to the families so that they can find the schools that best suit their needs.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I don't have much time left for my next question, but I'll ask it anyway.

You mentioned imposed restrictions. In some ridings, such as the one I represent, the amount military personnel receive for imposed restrictions has gone down. I was wondering if you had ever heard anyone talk about that.

Does that put more pressure on military personnel who also have a mortgage to pay?

Does that force some military personnel to choose less suitable housing, for example?

Have you ever heard such comments about imposed restrictions and how much they get?

[Laurie Ogilvie]

No. In my role, I don't hear that. What I do hear is around the financial impact on the military families themselves, but that's a very layered conversation, because it has to do more with the cost of housing and with spousal employment. It truly is about the family member giving up employment as they are moving across the country, which is why we introduced the military spousal employment network a few years ago. It is to help spouses be able to have more continuity of employment to offset those financial impacts.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Normandin.

Ms. Mathyssen, you have six minutes.