National Defence Committee on April 10th, 2024

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

It leaves that issue on the table and it allows us to ask questions. The critique that you heard today is that we haven't delivered to Ukraine. That's the theme of the motion.

Where it's coming from makes it really hard to listen to. They can pretend that they're there to support Ukraine, but everything they're doing is in line with what's happening in the United States. We're seeing this conservative, alt-right movement that seeks to undermine Ukraine. My motion, Mr. Chair, goes beyond just the NASAMS issue.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Kelly has a point of order.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

My point of order is that the motion is not in order. It deletes almost the entire substance of the original motion. It deletes the words, “That the Committee invite the Minister of National Defence”. It deletes the specific concern about the discrepancy in the announcement, wherein the minister said that the NASAMS were en route to Ukraine, which was a demonstrably false statement by that minister on April 11.

The amendment can't gut the original motion and remove everything of substance except for “NASAMS”.

I urge you to find this amendment out of order. It's clearly out of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I think you are right. I think it's out of order.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Mr. Chair, I wasn't taking the last part out; I was revising the first paragraph. My intent is to keep the minister—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm getting contradictory signals. I thought you were pretty well deleting everything else in the motion.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

No, I deleted “within 14 days” as part of the second sentence. Then I said I had an amendment to the first paragraph, and I've given you that amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay. Is the amendment leaving the substance of the motion in place? That's the question.

I think both the clerk and I misunderstood that. Let us try to read the motion back to you. I'll call upon my ever so competent clerk to see whether we have this correct, and then we can decide whether it's in order. As I understood it, and as I think Mr. Kelly understood it, it was not in order.

[The Clerk]

Mr. Collins, do you have a written copy? I would need to see it in order to be able to read it back.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I can give you that in a second. It's scribbled here, and I've read it out verbally, so....

[The Clerk]

Sure.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm sorry, folks. The clerk and the chair are having a minor disagreement here, so we're going to suspend.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay. We're back on the record.

We have a few minutes left. This proposal of Mr. Collins creates difficulties for the chair and the clerk. It's the “given” part: “Given that Canada has committed $4 billion”, etc. That part is probably in order, in that it's not part of the substantive motion, so it could live with the “given” that is in Mr. Bezan's motion.

The issue, then, is that Mr. Collins moves that the committee invite the Minister of National Defence to provide a briefing on the current status of all military support. In my view, that changes the substance of Mr. Bezan's motion quite dramatically, so that it's a far more expanded idea than just simply receiving a briefing on NASAMS.

In my view, regrettably, the amendment is not in order.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Can we have a vote on the motion as amended?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

This would be the motion as amended, with the reference to 14 days removed. Is there any other debate?

Go ahead, Ms. Mathyssen.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

In an attempt to maybe come to a place where we could find consensus, I'll give it a shot.

I don't have the text of what Mr. Collins wrote because it has only been read out. Is there any way to say that yes, there are many things the government has in fact delivered, and yes, we would like a comprehensive list of what that is, and yes, we would like to talk about all of that with the minister, but that this specific thing, as laid out by the Conservative motion, has not been delivered?

Then it would say that the committee invites the minister to provide a briefing on the current status of the NASAMS for Ukraine and all other forms of aid. Then it's a combination of both, in the best intention we could possibly find.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Go ahead, Mr. Kelly.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

If you're continuing with debate and not making a specific ruling on that, I'll simply say that you would have exactly the same problem with what Ms. Mathyssen is proposing. It would change the character of the motion entirely.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I tend to agree that it broadens the scope out of existence. You can expand the scope a little and add, but this goes quite substantively beyond the original motion.

Is there any other debate?

Seeing none, the vote is on the original motion as amended, which deletes the reference to 14 days. We'll have a recorded vote.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

I do have to get through one thing.

I need a motion for $3,750 for the budget for the study of consulting services.

Mr. Bezan moved it in a co-operative spirit and Mr. Collins seconded it, also in a co-operative spirit. I thank them for their co-operation. I don't think I need to call for a vote; I'm assuming everybody is voting in favour of that $3,750 budget.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

The other thing I wanted to get to in an orderly fashion, but was not able to, is that there's an informal meeting of Ukrainian MPs on April 18 at 3:30. There will be a notice going out to all of you. That's in the works.

As well, on May 10, the Minister of Defence for Germany, Boris Pistorius, will be here. That's the Friday before the break week. I doubt many people are going to stay around, but nevertheless I alert you to that.

Do we want to have a meeting with the Minister of Defence for Germany?

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

What time will it be on Friday?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We haven't set a time.

[The Clerk]

He's available on Friday morning.

As the chair mentioned, it is the Friday before a break week.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I was going to suggest something of minimal formality. Members whose travel schedules would allow for it could attend if they wished, but we'd manage expectations on the other end.

That would be my suggestion to you.