National Defence Committee on April 17th, 2024

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

It makes me think of the Trump trials.

Ms. Mathyssen.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Walbourne, in your opening statement, you mentioned that you are highly supportive of my bill, Bill C-362, for which I am very grateful. It means a lot. It was because of listening to a few ombudsmen on this issue that I put it forward.

The creation of a truly transparent office for the CAF and DND ombudsmen is the main thrust of the bill, of course. That independence could play such a key role. What specific tools could help in making the military more accountable on things like a culture change?

[Gary Walbourne]

I'll liken that to when they set up the sexual misconduct response centre. We learned very quickly when it was rolled out that it reported through the chain of command to the chief of the defence staff and then, functionally, to the deputy minister. There was a lot of reluctance among members who had experienced this type of behaviour to come forward because there was no thought of independence.

It can't just be independent; it also has to be perceived as independent. People, especially people who have been aggrieved, all automatically have a mistrust in the system. If they think their concern is not going to be taken seriously and will not be outside of the chain of command where it can have a full evaluation so that where it should go can be determined on its merits, then there will be a reluctance to come forward. If they have the thought that a person is not tied to the department—although the person reports through and assists the department—they'll think they have an option other than having to always respond to the one entity. I think it gives members, especially, this feeling that there's something they can do, there's somewhere they can go, there's a voice that will hear them and it's not going to be restricted by any schematic that has been set up by the department.

I just think it goes to transparency and the perception of transparency.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

You've said before, and you said again today, that listening to them shouldn't come down to personalities. Do you believe that independence would be key to ensuring that your work, your successors' work and the implementation of the recommendations don't come down to personalities, or is there more?

[Gary Walbourne]

I think it opens up a venue where the concerns would be heard by a broader audience. It doesn't come down to an ombudsman going hat in hand looking for some money. It changes the ground, and it makes it different for everybody who would use the office.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.

Next we have Mrs. Gallant for five minutes.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

To the former ombudsman, from the time you gave your testimony on how the military addresses sexual misconduct cases within its ranks until now, have you seen any improvement made by DND and the CAF?

[Gary Walbourne]

There's been incremental improvement. It would be unfair to say they haven't tried to do their best. I do believe, as Patrick has said, there has been some acceptance in the environment and people feel that, yes, they can come forward a bit more.

I don't know if we've gotten down to the ground on this yet. I believe it's going to be a work in progress for a period of time. The current set-up and structure seem to be helping along those lines. I don't think you're going to swallow an elephant, but maybe you will be eating it one bite at a time.

There has been some incremental improvement. There's an option for people there, and it's being received somewhat in a fairly good light.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

During your time as ombudsman, were there any reports of reprisals from DND or CAF superiors when a service member requested an ATIP?

[Gary Walbourne]

Absolutely.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

What sorts of reprisals? Are they the same type we're hearing about from Mr. White?

[Gary Walbourne]

Absolutely.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

How should service members be protected from reprisals from their superiors when they request an ATIP?

[Gary Walbourne]

Each case in and of itself is different. Some of these things are very minor issues that need to be dealt with. For some, it was a clerical error. For others, you would almost think it was a planned way forward not to release the information. Each and every case is different, and it depends on the circumstances of the case. Sometimes people are not being given information or people are being accused of using the wrong search, when they are asked for someone by name and they're only referred to by rank.

Those are the types of things we see. The ombudsman did have the opportunity to squeeze some of that information out of the department to help a constituent move forward.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

An ATIP request seems to be a very inefficient way for persons to obtain the information they need. Are other areas in the public service required to go through the same process to find the documents they need for their cases?

[Gary Walbourne]

Once an ATIP request comes in, anyone who is mentioned on it has to be engaged. The writer of some of this information also has the privilege to say, “No, I don't want it released.”

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Is there a process aside from ATIPs—because this is obviously broken—where service members can obtain the documents they need without going through that system? Is there another way to do it?

[Gary Walbourne]

It all depends which documents you're looking for. If you're looking for access to personnel records, that's fairly easily done, but it would depend on what documents they were searching for.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

For legal records—for example, copies of reports of testimonies—when somebody is making a report after a sexual assault, is that something they have to use an ATIP for? Should they just be able to get it? Do they need to retain a lawyer to obtain the documents?

[Gary Walbourne]

The answer is yes to all of the above.

Again, not to be flippant, but if it's something that has to do with a member's personnel file, it should be in their file. If it is something to do with an accusation of inappropriate behaviour or sexual misconduct, whatever that may be, it may not be captured in a personnel file and would end up being an ATIP request. There aren't many other ways to get access to that information.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

At one point along the way, there was a duty to report any sexual assaults, and here the individual did report and was in trouble for doing that. Is there another way to ensure, aside from going outside the military, that instances such as this can be addressed in a proper and timely manner?

[Gary Walbourne]

I think it comes back to what Patrick has already said: We need to talk about accountability. If we keep rewarding poor behaviour, we're going to get poor behaviour.

This is an accountability issue. I would say—and you're asking me in my jaded old age—that these types of things should all be outside of the military chain of command, but that's not going to happen.

What is another option for us? The ombudsman, even when the sexual misconduct response centre was set up, still continued to deal with inappropriate sexual behaviour complaints. On the duty to report, we need to allow the victims to determine what their self-actualization looks like: What do they want to do and how do they want to do it? It shouldn't be someone else reporting on them. There's a lot in that.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Were there other reprisals, as Mr. White experienced, when obtaining access to information reports?

[Gary Walbourne]

Absolutely.