Evidence of meeting #99 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ombudsman.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:45 p.m.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Mr. Walbourne, in a couple of months, Mr. Lick will be retiring from his role as ombudsman. We're in mid-April. I asked him, and he's certainly very concerned about the fact that on the PCO website there is still no job post up for his replacement.
Are you concerned about that? What do you think needs to happen to ensure a transparent, open process for choosing the next ombudsperson?
5:45 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
Rest assured that I'm not concerned about applying for the position.
5:45 p.m.
Some hon. members
Oh, oh!
5:45 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
However, I think it's absolutely critical that there be a competition. I hear the scuttlebutt on the road. I'm sure it's around this table and people know about various levels of it. There's a thought process about how an ombudsman is going to be appointed. I shudder to think what that's going to do to this office.
When we appoint an ombudsman, let me tell you—and we all know how it works—there is a quid pro quo. Somewhere down the road, it will be time for payback. I question the independence of the office, so I really hope that at the end of the day, if nothing else happens, when we go looking for the next ombudsperson, there is an open competition, to which those who wish to can apply, and that, based on merit and ability, the right person is selected for the job.
You talked about transparency. I think appointing an ombudsman goes contrary to any definition of transparency you will find.
5:50 p.m.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
We haven't started that process yet. How long did it take for the process in which we saw Mr. Lick take on that role?
April 17th, 2024 / 5:50 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
I have no idea. Mr. Lick came in as an interim ombudsman, I think, for six or eight months, and then a competition was opened, to which he applied. I have no idea how long it took for me. From the time I applied to the time I got through, it was almost six or eight weeks. There was psychological testing. There were nine people on the panel, from the Prime Minister's Office and from the minister's office. PCO was in the room. There was a broad base of people in the room who were coming at it from different perspectives.
Anyway, I'll knock the table and hope we don't....
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
5:50 p.m.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Mr. Walbourne, in response to Mr. Bezan's question, you were quite emphatic that the culture change that's talked about all the time is really just a matter of leadership and accountability on the part of individuals—those who let the system down through bad behaviour and the tolerance of bad behaviour.
The government has been in office for almost nine years now. It promised improvements in openness and transparency. If there was clear leadership at the ministerial level to demand accountability and demand openness and transparency, is it fair to say we'd have it by now?
5:50 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
I think we have a perfect opportunity, to follow on Ms. Mathyssen's question. The minister now has an opportunity to pick the next ombudsperson coming into the organization. If we're going to just pick someone off a list or find someone we think is qualified and put them in there.... It goes back to leading by example.
The proper behaviour should be rewarded. If we continue to allow behaviour that is not at the level that we as taxpayers expect and that I expect from this group in Parliament, we need to challenge that.
5:50 p.m.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Mr. White, do you see any evidence that there has been a demand by the minister for improvements to openness and transparency or any evidence of that being borne out in the actual day-to-day life in the department?
5:50 p.m.
As an Individual
I can comment more on just the effect.
To be honest, I empathize with everyone around this table in the sense that I don't think there's a single person here—even beyond the table, in the entire room—who would want sexual misconduct in the military and a dysfunctional military. I appreciate that the challenge might surpass one government and go into the next, as you're all trying to take your ministerial orders and filter them down, but regardless of effort, I don't think it's working.
5:50 p.m.
Conservative
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
Marie-France Lalonde Liberal Orléans, ON
Thank you very much.
I'm going to try to give both of you a minute, but Mr. Walbourne, could you tell us a bit about some of the types of research and studies you conducted in your role as ombudsman? Please be very brief.
5:50 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
We looked at just about every aspect of the military: reserves, Canadian Rangers, junior rangers, cadets, transition, mental health and support for families. It was such a broad base. We looked at just about every aspect that we thought would get at members' well-being. We spent a lot of time with families and a lot of time with reservists because they had not received the attention. It was across the board.
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
Marie-France Lalonde Liberal Orléans, ON
Thank you very much.
Lieutenant White, I want to give you the last minute or so of this committee. I know that you brought recommendations, and I'm going to leave you to tell us what else we need to do to ensure more fairness.
5:50 p.m.
As an Individual
Well, I looked at the minister's remarks and he commented, “I also understand my responsibility for holding [my officials] to account”. I certainly hope the minister is supported in that opportunity, because this is what being a minister is about.
I won't speak for Mr. Walbourne, but fundamentally, regardless of what people say, I think individuals like me and like Mr. Walbourne are trying to make things better.
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Unfortunately, that brings an end to our time together.
We're going to adjourn, colleagues, and then, after the vote, return as a subcommittee to deal with things.
I want to thank you, Mr. White and Mr. Walbourne, for your willingness to appear and be so candid and direct with us. It's helpful, but it's also immensely challenging.
On a personal note, it's good to see you again, Mr. Walbourne. I think the first time I saw you I was the Liberal Party's defence critic, back in 2011.
5:55 p.m.
Former Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
I remember it well.