Evidence of meeting #12 for National Defence in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was forces.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Colonel  Retired) Michel Drapeau (Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Lieutenant-Colonel  Retired) Rory Fowler (Lawyer, As an Individual
Megan MacKenzie  Professor and Simons Chair in International Law and Human Security, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual
Duval-Lantoine  Vice-President, Ottawa Operations, Canadian Global Affairs Institute

The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 12 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on National Defence.

Pursuant to the motion adopted on October 23, 2025, the committee is meeting to resume its consideration of Bill C-11, an act to amend the National Defence Act and other acts.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person and remotely using the Zoom application.

Before we continue, I ask all persons and participants here in the room to consult the guidelines on the table. These measures are designed to help prevent audio and feedback incidents and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters.

I would like to remind the witnesses and members to please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic and please mute yourself when you are not speaking. For those on Zoom, at the bottom of your screen, you can select the appropriate channel for interpretation: floor, English or French. For those in the room, please use the earpiece and select the desired channel. Again, all comments should be addressed through the chair.

For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can. We appreciate your patience and understanding in this regard.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses: Colonel-Maitre Michel Drapeau, professor; retired Lieutenant-Colonel Rory Fowler; Megan MacKenzie, professor and chair in international law and human security; and Charlotte Duval-Lantoine, vice-president, Ottawa operations, Canadian Global Affairs Institute.

Professor Drapeau, I'd now like to invite you to make your opening statement. You have up to five minutes.

Colonel Retired) Michel Drapeau (Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Mr. Chair and committee members, let me open by thanking the members of the committee for giving me the honour of appearing once again before you on a matter that has been of continuing interest to me as someone who served in the armed forces for 34 years before becoming a lawyer, an author and a law professor specializing in Canadian military law.

As many of you probably know, I have long advocated for the very changes proposed by this legislation. I am, therefore, pleased to note my high level of satisfaction with the contents of Bill C-11 in transferring the jurisdiction over sexual offences in Canada to civilian courts, which mirrors the text of Bill C-66, which was tabled in a previous Parliament. To that end, permit me to congratulate the Minister of National Defence, the Hon. David McGuinty, as well as his predecessor, for tabling this much-awaited legislative reform. Overall, therefore, I accept and support the provisions of Bill C-11 in their entirety.

Also, in preparation for my testimony here this morning, I have listened to the testimonies provided during meeting number 10, which took place on October 27, by the Minister of National Defence, the deputy minister, the chief of the defence staff and other officials. Following this discussion, I apprehend that, at the end of the day, there will be a lack of legislative direction to the exact procedure to be followed by the Canadian Forces in cases of sexual offences committed by Canadian Armed Forces personnel taking place outside of Canada’s territorial boundaries.

Obviously, such a significant regulatory gap cannot be corrected by Bill C-11. However, given the multiplicity of scenarios in which sexual offences by armed forces personnel can take place in international waters, in a foreign country’s port or during operational deployment in foreign lands, in my opinion there is a need to provide clear legislative direction as to who will investigate and prosecute sexual crimes taking place on aircraft in flight, on vessels sailing beyond Canada’s borders and in army units in formation deployed in foreign lands.

In the absence of such legislation, sexual crimes committed abroad by Canadian Forces personnel may continue to be investigated and, perhaps, prosecuted by the military justice system, which has already been found to be seriously deficient in this specific area by several independent reviews.

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members, for listening. I look forward to your questions.

The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa

Thank you, Mr. Drapeau. I appreciate that.

Mr. Fowler, you now have five minutes for your opening statement.

Lieutenant-Colonel Retired) Rory Fowler (Lawyer, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I'll echo my colleague's thanks for the invitation to appear before you today.

Bill C‑11 is presented as a solution to military justice problems relating to sexual misconduct in the Canadian Forces. I contend that not only will it fail to solve the actual issues that the Canadian Forces face, but it will generate additional problems.

The principle challenge faced by the Canadian Forces, not just in terms of sexual misconduct but in terms of military justice broadly, is impunity arising from deficiencies in enforcing accountability. Removing jurisdiction over select criminal offences in select circumstances will not aid in improving accountability. Instead, it will provide a convenient excuse for inaction or, alternatively, overreaction. It will lead to further impunity. It will undermine fairness and access to justice for all members of the Canadian Forces.

We have been down this road before. Prior to the enactment of Bill C‑25 in 1998, the code of service discipline did not have jurisdiction over sexual assault when it was alleged to have occurred outside Canada. There was outrage about the Canadian Forces' seemingly inability or lack of motivation to address this issue and, following a variety of studies, including by former justices of the Supreme Court of Canada, Parliament amended the National Defence Act to remove that limitation.

The purpose of the code of service discipline is to maintain the discipline, efficiency and morale of the Canadian Forces. For over 30 years, the judge advocate general and the director of military prosecutions have campaigned through policy development and litigation to encourage the adoption of a broad application of the code of service discipline. They successfully eliminated the military nexus test. The military justice system has jurisdiction over criminal offences that have little or no connection to the Canadian Forces save the identity of the accused. Parliament has reinforced that broad application of jurisdiction, and the Supreme Court of Canada has upheld it.

Now, however, we are told that the jurisdiction should be curtailed, but only for sexual offences and only when they are alleged to have occurred in Canada. This is incongruous with the theory underpinning military justice in Canada. Jurisdiction will remain where such allegations arise outside Canada, even though military judges, prosecutors, defence counsel and military police will now have less experience investigating, prosecuting and presiding over such matters. Those prosecuted for such offences before civil courts of criminal jurisdiction will no longer have access to the defence counsel services free of charge, which fetters access to justice.

Why are the current government, the leadership of the Canadian Forces and the justice advocate general abandoning this principle in a piecemeal fashion? Why is the code of service discipline fit for function and fit for purpose for other forms of criminal misconduct but not for sexual misconduct? Why is it fit for purpose for allegations arising outside of Canada?

If the core problem is a lack of accountability for CF decision-makers, there has been no credible explanation as to how these jurisdictional changes will improve accountability. That is because they won't, because they can't.

If the prevailing wisdom is that CF leadership cannot be trusted with enforcing discipline relating to sexual misconduct, then how can it be trusted with leadership generally? How can it be trusted with applying administrative measures where sexual misconduct arises? How is this supposed to improve accountability? How does this jurisdictional change encourage or empower leaders to act? How will it ensure that they act fairly, in a timely fashion and reasonably?

A consistent theme in the discourse that followed the Arbour report was that CF leadership consistently failed to create an environment in which victims of sexual misconduct felt safe to raise concerns and complaints and that the same leadership consistently failed to take appropriate action. Bill C‑11 will not correct that problem and may well set conditions to perpetuate or aggravate it by passing the fault to the civilian system as opposed to attacking the source of the problem.

The written submissions that I have provided to the committee, which I believe are still in translation, focus on the myths and mis-characterizations upon which many of these problematic recommendations have been predicated. These include incongruity between the proposed amendments and the purpose of the code of service discipline and the myth of the greater benefit of supposed greater independence for select actors. It also identifies the lack of safeguards regarding implementation of those changes.

The problem the Canadian Forces face is not the jurisdiction of the code of service discipline. The problem does not arise from the tools that are available to CF leadership. The problem is a failure of leadership and a failure to hold leaders accountable.

Junior CF personnel are routinely admonished in administrative and disciplinary processes for a failure to uphold the Canadian Forces' code of values and ethics. Ironically, CF statutory decision-makers have frequently failed to uphold those same values and ethics when punishing subordinates for such failures.

As is detailed in my written submissions, there are some positive elements that arise out of Bill C-11, such as removing judges from the jurisdiction of the summary process. However, ultimately, this isn't just about sexual misconduct. The central issue is accountability. Bill C-11 does not improve the mechanisms to hold CF leaders accountable for inaction or bad decision-making. On the contrary, it provides them with a convenient excuse to avoid action.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I await your questions.

The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa

Thank you, Mr. Fowler.

Professor MacKenzie, you have up to five minutes. I hope you're all set up.

Professor Megan MacKenzie Professor and Simons Chair in International Law and Human Security, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual

I am.

Good morning. Thank you, Chair and members of the committee, for the opportunity to appear today.

I have been studying military sexual violence, which is the all-encompassing term I prefer to use in my work, for nearly two decades. Like Mr. Drapeau, I've seen, through this work, the importance of moving cases of sexual violence outside of the internal justice system, not only for the Canadian Armed Forces but for other armed forces.

I'll remind you that the military was given its own justice system because it's set to hold itself to a higher standard than the civilian context. Given that we have now had decades of high levels of sexual crimes and low levels of accountability, I think it's clear that this rationale for an internal system is no longer valid. I congratulate and support Bill C-11. I am encouraged to see the proposals and the ongoing efforts to address sexual violence.

The measures outlined in this bill reflect long-standing recommendations that come from decades of advocacy and research. Moving cases of sexual violence to the civilian justice system has been called for repeatedly. It was a key recommendation of the Deschamps report in 2015, the Fish report and the 2022 Arbour review.

Another essential element is the new appointment process of four select senior CAF leaders. This change is especially important. As we saw in 2021, when 12 senior members of the Canadian Armed Forces were facing allegations of sexual misconduct, including two chiefs of the defence forces, it became nearly impossible to understand who was meant to investigate or prosecute these cases. The current structure, where the chief of the defence staff appoints the provost marshal and many other senior officers, creates conditions where conflicts of interest are unavoidable. These aren't political appointments; they are integrity measures to ensure that the system is capable of holding its most senior members accountable.

While I welcome these important steps, I want to underscore that this bill represents only one piece of the puzzle. Addressing sexual violence in the Canadian Armed Forces requires attention to broader issues, as has been raised, including systemic racism, sexism and other forms of entrenched discrimination.

It's also important to apply a critical eye to claims of progress. I would say that it's a generous interpretation to say that 36 of the 48 recommendations made by Justice Arbour have been fully implemented. Many of these are better described as under way or implemented in spirit, rather than to the letter. There are still no clear guidelines on what happens when victims go to the Canadian Human Rights Commission, and there has been limited attention to how that body will be resourced to handle potential new cases.

Promises of culture change sit alongside evidence of ongoing systemic racism, sexism and misogyny, which often manifests in online CAF communities. Culture change may be incremental, but it cannot take forever. For the last three decades, we have had many senior leaders talk about the time that will be needed to make these changes. It simply cannot take forever.

I also want to remind the committee that the Justice Fish report in 2021 reiterated many of Justice Deschamps' 2015 recommendations, which, as she herself noted, largely gathered dust for too long. This pattern of delay undermines confidence.

From my own research, I've seen how institutions use narrative to manage scandal. The problem is acknowledged and reforms are announced, yet the structural barriers to justice persist.

It's important to note that from research, approximately 80% of victims of military sexual violence never report. Many who do report experience retraumatization through long trials, institutional resistance and cases that end without conviction. In some of the Canadian Armed Forces high-profile cases, we even see alleged perpetrators countersuing. This pattern has a chilling effect and reinforces the perception, to victims, that accountability is elusive.

As I often emphasize in my work, we need to pay attention to the full life cycle of military sexual violence: the environment that fosters it, including military culture, hierarchy, racism and tolerance of misconduct; the incident itself, including how data are collected, how victims report and whether they have access to information and support; and finally, the response, which includes the justice process, the accountability for perpetrators and adequate restitution and care for survivors. This bill addresses one vital piece of that life cycle but without equal focus on the others, especially prevention and cultural transformation, we risk another cycle of partial reform.

I commend the committee for taking this step. I urge you to ensure this implementation is treated as one piece of a larger puzzle and that this process is guided by data, transparency and survivor-centred principles.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa

Thank you, Professor.

Ms. Duval-Lantoine, you're the last to give us the opening remarks in five minutes.

Charlotte Duval-Lantoine Vice-President, Ottawa Operations, Canadian Global Affairs Institute

They're tough acts to follow.

Mr. Chair, vice-chairs, members of the committee, it's an honour being in front of you today.

I will be doing my remarks in English, but, as you can hear, I'm French. It will be my utmost pleasure to answer your questions in French.

My remarks today will focus on whether Bill C-11 helps prevent sexual misconduct and violence, what I view as the core nature of this bill, and how to maximize its effects.

To start, I would push back against the government's framing that Bill C-11 is fundamentally changing the culture of the Canadian military in a way that will minimize sexual violence. That being said, it does not mean that Bill C-11 is not worth passing. Despite bringing necessary and long-sought-after changes of jurisdiction for the investigation and prosecution of Criminal Code offences of a sexual nature, this bill will not help the military prevent sexual violence in its ranks. What it does, though, is give people with lived experience the opportunity to seek justice independent from their chain of command in the case of an offence happening on Canadian soil and to stop using a system they have deemed untrustworthy and that has reinforced institutional betrayal.

This is where we get to the history and the intent of this bill. Most of the amendments proposed in Bill C-11 are in response to the third independent review of the National Defence Act, completed by retired justice Morris Fish in 2021. The goal of this review was to evaluate whether the military justice system is free and protected from undue influence; is effective in maintaining discipline, efficiency and morale; and remains legitimate in the eyes of service members. Changing the jurisdiction of investigations and prosecution of offences of a sexual nature responds to those requirements. Even if it is Justice Arbour who recommended this change, it is aligned with the intent of Justice Fish's review and one of his recommendations, although making it permanent. This makes this bill worth adopting.

I would like to turn your attention now to an underappreciated aspect of Bill C-11, and this is that it is requiring more direct involvement from the Governor in Council in military justice affairs. The challenge is that the Governor in Council has not been the most prompt at appointing key decision-makers. It took four years to appoint our current chief military judge. It took over a year to appoint our current DND/CAF ombudsman. This needs to change. Those positions are fixed terms. It should be easy to have those appointments happen in due time, yet the reality is different.

This bill does address that challenge for the positions of director, defence counsel services, the director of military prosecutions and the provost marshal by imposing a 90-day period for the Governor in Council to appoint someone in these roles. In that vein, I recommend the bill be amended to include the same provision for any Governor in Council appointments related to military justice. Beyond that, it will be upon Parliament and the members of this committee to ensure these appointments are done within the time frame mandated by law.

I will leave you with that.

Thank you. I am now looking forward to your questions.

The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa

Thank you very much for your remarks.

Before we begin with questions, I'd like to advise the members of the committee that we are being scrutinized by the former chair of this committee, Mr. John McKay.

James Bezan

No, he's just scrutinizing you.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa

He's one of the longest-standing members of Parliament, who has since retired, but he still roams the halls—and here he is.

Welcome to our committee, Mr. McKay.

Some hon. members

Hear, hear!

The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa

Mr. Anderson, we're going to start off with you for the first six minutes of this first round.

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Anderson Conservative Vernon—Lake Country—Monashee, BC

Thank you very much.

Mr. Fowler, you've been critical, I think, of the entire operation, categorizing it as a failure of leadership rather than a failure of process. I think Canadians, regardless of whether we agree with it or not, deserve to hear a little bit more fully what your thesis is.

Professor MacKenzie made the statement that high levels of sexual violence and low levels of conviction in the CAF have been a problem. Would you agree with that statement?

LCol (Ret'd) Rory Fowler

It's a loaded statement because the objective of any justice system, whether it's a military justice system or a criminal justice system, is not a 100% conviction rate. If you want a system that has a 100% conviction rate, there are a couple of countries, such as the Republic of North Korea and China. They have systems that ensure a high level of conviction. That's not the objective of a criminal justice system.

I do agree when people observe that the conviction rate in the military justice system is in fact lower—not by as much as some people suggest—than the civilian criminal justice system, but the objective of any criminal justice system is to ensure that those who are guilty are found guilty, and those who are not are not found guilty. There were some high-profile prosecutions of senior members of the Canadian Forces with some remarkable acquittals. To suggest that there is a chilling effect when people who are wrongly accused seek compensation for being wrongly accused fails to recognize that some people who are charged with criminal offences are not, in fact, guilty.

The objective of any system needs to be fair and needs to be reasonable. It needs to have the confidence of not just of victims and complainants, and I do agree with Professor MacKenzie that victims and complainants must have confidence in the system that is being used. Those people who are brought before the system and the Canadian public also have to have confidence in that system.

One of the reasons I suggest—and I posited this in my blog and, in fact, it's in the submissions I placed before the committee—that the conviction rate for the military justice system might be somewhat lower than the civilian justice system is access to justice. Members of the Canadian Forces who are charged with code of service discipline offences, whether they're related to sexual misconduct or any form of misconduct, when they are tried for those offences before a court martial, are represented by the capable lawyers at defence counsel services.

I can point to a perfect example of the exceptional service they provide.

In the case of King v. Vu, which went all the way up to the Supreme Court of Canada, Vu was found not guilty at court martial. It was upheld by a 2:1 majority at the Court Martial Appeal Court of Canada, and it was upheld by a 6:1 majority at the Supreme Court of Canada, all because of the exceptional service of Major Francesca Ferguson, who was counsel for the accused at each of those levels.

I would suggest that the conviction rate in the military justice system is lower than that in the civilian justice system because members of the Canadian Forces have access to exceptional counsel free of charge. Those same members of the Canadian Forces would not be eligible for legal aid in most, if not all, provinces and territories of Canada. They would be paying tens of thousands of dollars for the quality defence that people like Major Ferguson provide.

8:40 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Anderson Conservative Vernon—Lake Country—Monashee, BC

Thank you very much.

You also mentioned, I believe, the code of service discipline and how it differs from civilian life. You described this as piecemeal dismantling of the system itself. Can you explain the importance of the code of service discipline to the military?

I don't know that there's a lot of military experience around the table, and I think Canadians need to understand that difference.

LCol (Ret'd) Rory Fowler

If I may, Mr. Anderson, I'll explain that and I'll explain my incredulity about why the current judge advocate general, who has been a staunch advocate for a broad application of the code of service discipline, is now changing his tune. It's because the rationale behind the code of service discipline, which predates Bill C-25 and when most of these issues were previously brought before committees, is to maintain a disciplined force. It's there in the legislation. It's to “maintain the discipline, efficiency and morale of the Canadian Forces.”

It has a broad application. The rationale behind applying it, even in circumstances that don't fall within what used to be called the military nexus—in other words, criminal offences that might arise off base, where the only person involved in the criminal activity is a member of the Canadian Forces and the victims of such criminal activity are not members of the Canadian Forces—and including it in the code of service discipline is that any ill-disciplined conduct by a member of the Canadian Forces affects the discipline of the Canadian Forces.

That is the song that has been sung by the CAF leadership and the judge advocate general for nearly 30 years. Frankly, it could be even longer. I believe it was sung even when my colleague Colonel Drapeau was in the Canadian Forces.

As a result, when we take a specific set of offences and remove them from the jurisdiction in specific circumstances, we're not actually addressing the core of the problem. You've heard it from all of the witnesses here. The core of the problem isn't the tools that are available to the Canadian Forces. The core of the problem is holding leaders accountable for inaction, bad decision-making or overreaction.

Also, as it has been alluded to by some of the other witnesses, you can't legislate good leadership and you can't legislate culture change. What you can do is have legislation that allows you to hold leaders accountable.

I agree with Ms. Duval-Lantoine. As a perfect example, there need to be time limits and limitation periods for people to take action to appoint key personnel, even to provide reports. The judge advocate general has consistently—

The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa

Mr. Fowler, I apologize. There's a time limit here too.

LCol (Ret'd) Rory Fowler

I understand, Mr. Chair.

If I may, though, the key point here—and I believe my colleagues would agree with me—is that a limitation period or a time limit imposed on any statutory actor that has no real and significant manifest consequences for that decision-maker, is not actually a limitation period; it's just a suggestion.

The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa

Mr. Watchorn, you have up to six minutes.

Tim Watchorn Liberal Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses for their remarks. Their comments are quite informative.

I'll start by drawing a parallel between Bill C‑11 and the legislation recently passed in Quebec concerning the creation of a specialized court for sexual and domestic violence. The National Assembly unanimously passed this legislation on November 26, 2021. It came into effect on November 30, 2021. Its main purpose is to restore confidence in the justice system for victims of sexual and domestic violence. It also seeks to give these individuals integrated and tailored psychosocial and legal services starting from their initial contact with the police.

I see a strong parallel between the Quebec government's legislation, which was passed unanimously, and Bill C‑11, which we're studying today.

I would like Professor MacKenzie to share her opinion on the need for a specialized court to understand the experiences of victims of sexual violence.

I would also like her to explain how Bill C‑11 will improve this service.

Prof. Megan MacKenzie

I think this also responds in some ways to Mr. Fowler's comments.

One thing that is very different about the internal military justice system that results in a failure for victims is that there is essentially an internal monitoring. What happens—and we've seen examples through the Canadian case and other international cases that I have studied—is that you have peers, fellow service members, investigating and addressing a problem that is systemic. That is the core reason that moving to a civilian system may not be perfect. The civilian justice system has not been perfect at convicting sexual violence either. The core problem that it solves, first of all, as Madame Duval-Lantoine mentioned, is the fact that, over the last 20 years, victims have lost faith in the military justice system.

Also, there's a fear of nepotism. There's a fear of colleagues investigating each other. We do know that, at the highest ranks, we often have service members who have served for a long time and may lack the ability to investigate and hold each other accountable in a way that moves outside of that justice system. I think there are two ways that it helps address.... It moves it outside of a system that is a very closed system that can lead to self-reflection and a lack of objective investigations. It also provides victims with an option to move to an institution that they may have more faith in if they have been abused within the system.

Tim Watchorn Liberal Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC

Thank you for this response.

Ms. Duval‑Lantoine, in your opinion, how will Bill C‑11 give women confidence and make it easier to recruit them into the military?

8:45 a.m.

Vice-President, Ottawa Operations, Canadian Global Affairs Institute

Charlotte Duval-Lantoine

There isn't really a direct link between cases of sexual misconduct or sexual violence and women's willingness to join the Canadian Armed Forces. There isn't really any published research on this topic.

That said, it sends the message that the armed forces are taking much more active and proactive measures in this area. Once this bill is passed, we'll have to see whether it has the desired effect.

We can't really know whether legislation of this nature will fundamentally change the behaviour of Canadian women. Furthermore, we don't know whether all Canadians are tuning in today to find out what Bill C‑11 can do for them.