National Defence Committee on Nov. 6th, 2025

[Col (Ret'd) Michel Drapeau]

You were talking about the military police and oversight of the military police. We created the Military Police Complaints Commission, but here's the fix: When you complain to the Military Police Complaints Commission, the complaint goes back to the provost marshal for an investigation. It takes them a year or two to investigate it before the MPCC actually looks at it. I have complaints on my desk at the moment from victims of sexual assault that have been worked on by the professional standards cell at the military police level, so the MPCC, even if they're eager to get involved and they know there's a case in there, they can't. Their hands are tied.

I'd recommend to this committee that you hear from the chair of the MPCC, because at the moment, it's not because of incompetence. It's because the system does not allow her to do her work.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

We'll make sure we add her to the witness list, because I think that is good advice.

The problem here is that getting justice for victims and making sure we have a fair judicial system comes down to the military police and the failures within the military police and the chain of command within that.

Colonel-Maitre Drapeau and Lieutenant-Colonel Fowler, you both mentioned the inspector general concept, which some of our allies have. Under that, you would provide some of the duties and responsibilities that the ombudsman has right now, but you would also move everything—

[A witness]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Well, there's that possibility. In talking to the ombudsman, they would feel they would become more independent outside of the Department of National Defence and reporting to the minister, and going to Parliament.

Is that not where you'd put the national investigation service and where you'd put the military police?

[Col (Ret'd) Michel Drapeau]

No, I would not.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Would you not?

[Col (Ret'd) Michel Drapeau]

This ombud would be totally independent and basically unique in his position and be available to deploy and attend to a specific location or problem and come unannounced if required because of complaints he has received. Basically, he would have free rein to attend to whoever may be able to answer his complaint or solve the issue that he's looking at, and that includes this committee.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Okay.

[LCol (Ret'd) Rory Fowler]

To build upon what Michel has mentioned, if you look at the models of inspectors general in allied nations, particularly those that have a common law system like ours, the inspector general does not get involved in criminal or military justice matters. What they're there for is to complement.

This addresses something Professor MacKenzie has raised. One of the things an inspector general could do, independent of complaints of sexual misconduct or sexual assault that would be dealt with either in a civilian criminal justice system or a military justice system, is to look at systemic issues with respect to reporting or failures of the chain of command outside of a criminal or military justice system.

We have to remember that when we talk about the governance of the Canadian Forces, it is an overlapping matrix of authorities. While the inspector general wouldn't deal with discipline, per se, the inspector general would deal with systemic issues arising from complaints that were brought by members of the Canadian Forces, or even members of the public.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Your time is up.

I've given some time, but I do see that Professor MacKenzie's hand is up.

Do you want to interject before we proceed to Mr. Watchorn?

[Prof. Megan MacKenzie]

Yes, I want to make a quick clarification point. I do think it's important to note that the military police and the claim of total independence is a little inaccurate. I would remind you that the head of the military police is the provost marshal, who is appointed by the chief of the defence staff. This is precisely why it's very difficult, especially when you have high-level, senior-ranking members of the Canadian Armed Forces facing allegations being investigated by those they have appointed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Mr. Watchorn, you have up to five minutes, please.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Drapeau, I'll let you continue with your idea of what was happening at one time, what is happening now and what will happen in the future.

You talked about some of the incidents that have happened in the past. I hope that Bill C‑11 will improve on that.

How do you think Bill C‑11 will improve the situation for victims?

[Col (Ret'd) Michel Drapeau]

First of all, I would say that this will improve the level of trust. Nearly 15% of the Canadian Armed Forces personnel are women. Many of the women who have been assaulted haven't reported the incident to the authorities.

We should see an increase in the level of trust today. If women are victims of assault or inappropriate behaviour, they will have more confidence in the system because they know they will be able to appeal to an independent, professional and experienced police force to receive their complaint.

If they eventually have to go to court, they would also receive a judgment similar to what their fellow servicewomen will receive if they have gone through a similar experience.

This doesn't currently exist, but it's a major point. I believe this will be beneficial for the recruitment and retention of female personnel in the armed forces.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Thank you very much.

As I was saying earlier, cases of assault and sexual violence are really separate incidents. The Government of Quebec recognized this because it created a court specialized in sexual violence and domestic violence. For my part, I can only see a parallel between the study we're doing here on Bill C‑11 and what's being done in Quebec right now.

Do you agree that, by implementing Bill C‑11, we'll be able to deal with cases of sexual violence in a better way than previously?

[Col (Ret'd) Michel Drapeau]

I couldn't agree more.

It's important to provide that very important element of trust and send a message to the institution itself that it is no longer responsible for that function. If such an incident were to occur, it would be the civilian authorities that would manage the situation. They would investigate and prosecute, if necessary.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Ms. Duval‑Lantoine, if we pass Bill C‑11, do you think it will give victims more confidence in the justice system, as was the case in Quebec when that province created a specialized court for sexual and domestic violence?

[Charlotte Duval-Lantoine]

Yes, potentially. This measure has been requested by many victims, so I think a change in jurisdiction will be useful and will restore victims' confidence.

That said, the civilian system for handling and prosecuting sexual violence cases isn't perfect.

The provinces and territories of Canada should perhaps consider implementing a system similar to the one adopted in Quebec.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Duval‑Lantoine.

Ms. MacKenzie, we heard the argument earlier that military police and investigators will lose expertise in sexual assault investigations.

Do you believe that's the case?

Will victims be better served in civilian courts?

[Prof. Megan MacKenzie]

I think victims will be better served outside of the military justice system. We have had decades of evidence that shows it has not been successful having the military try to address this internally; you have problems with chain of command investigating themselves. I agree that the civilian system isn't perfect. I agree that this is one piece of the puzzle in addressing sexual misconduct and sexual violence. I agree that there are broader issues of leadership.

We have had so many experts make this recommendation. It is an important step that needs to happen very soon.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

There's one minute left.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Mr. Drapeau, I want to explore this issue a little further.

We're here to improve Bill C‑11. You expressed concern about the ability of the military police to gather evidence and then pass it on to civilian authorities.

What would you recommend to improve that process?

[Col (Ret'd) Michel Drapeau]

I'm particularly concerned about cases involving sexual assaults committed outside the country. When I listen to the comments made on October 27, I find that it's unclear.

There are all kinds of nuances, depending on who is speaking. We're talking about the ways in which victims of sexual assault deployed in Ukraine, for example, are taken care of. However, who takes charge of their cases, who investigates them and who initiates the prosecution procedures? It's not clear.

The process needs to be clarified.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

What would your recommendation be in that regard?