Evidence of meeting #13 for National Defence in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was civilian.
A video is available from Parliament.
Medical Doctor, As an Individual
Well, I think that right now, the way the bill is, there is no choice, because you've made it such a high bar for me to report. I cannot imagine a scenario in which anyone is going to report those to a civilian system, so we're—
Medical Doctor, As an Individual
—not going to report those little ones, which means, we know, that statistically, the people doing that are going to feel empowered to continue on and on until we get into the mid and higher ones, and we're forced, then and only then, preventably, to have to report, because they're at the higher level and because there was nothing to stop them at the lower levels.
Conservative
Jeff Kibble Conservative Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Thank you.
Do you feel that if victims had the choice to report it within the military system, they would then make those reports?
Medical Doctor, As an Individual
Again, when we're talking about these lower-level issues—and certainly I can speak for myself as well—we just want it stopped. We just want it to go away. We want them to know that we don't like it, we don't want it and it's not welcome.
Sometimes there are mixed wires, especially when you're young, you're in your early twenties. Sometimes there are genuine mixed wires, and you thought it was wanted.
When you've clearly said this isn't wanted, you just want it to stop. In a perfect world, maybe they even say “sorry,” but that's it.
We don't want civilian cases. We don't want to be treating them as sexual predators—
Conservative
Jeff Kibble Conservative Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Thank you.
Do you agree, Ms. David, in terms of the low, medium or high, that they should all have choice or be limited, from your perspective?
Senior Legal Counsel, As an Individual
I would submit that from my perspective, they should all have a choice. For the reasons indicated by Colonel MacGregor as well, considering both the safeguards and entitlements to the accused, but also the safeguards and entitlements to the victims now within the military justice system, I think we should at least give it a chance to deal with all the levels of sexual misconduct.
Conservative
Jeff Kibble Conservative Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Thank you very much.
My next question is for Mr. MacGregor.
Could you please explain the differences in the process and the standards by which military police versus civilian authorities collect their evidence? Would there be conflict or potential loss of evidence between the two systems?
Col (Ret'd) Bruce MacGregor
I think what you'd have to do is talk to the provost marshal, and I think the provost marshal will be talking about that directly.
I do want to say that, in reference to the previous question and statement from Quebec, while I was the director of military prosecutions, we established the DMP SMART. It's a sexual misconduct response team that was led by Lieutenant-Colonel Maureen Pecknold, the reserve prosecutor within my shop. She has been acknowledged nationally for her level of expertise as a top-notch prosecutor out of Toronto in all high-level cases, including serious sexual assault cases. She led our team.
It's those types of things that we did within the military prosecution service that respond to what is being celebrated in Quebec. We did it; we had a small prosecution service, but we had high quality in being able to do that and respond.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa
Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.
Sherry Romanado, you have up to five minutes.
I think we may be wrapping it up soon.
Liberal
Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Through you, I'd like to thank the witnesses for being with us today. I'm actually going to be sharing my time with my colleague, MP Idlout, so I'll make a brief statement, and then I'll turn it over to her, because I think it's important that we have every voice at the table.
Dr. Breeck, you mentioned what the goal is, and I think we all agree on what the goal is: We want this to stop. Despite having a duty to report and despite our repealing it, the question for me is always this: How many never came forward out of fear of reprisal? How many suffered in silence? How many left the Canadian Armed Forces forever traumatized and to this day have not come forward?
My hope is that, with our bringing forward this legislation, those who have suffered can find some resolution, and we can stop this. I want to thank you all for what you're doing, because as a mother of serving members, I think what you're doing is really important.
Thank you.
With that, I'll turn it over to my colleague.
NDP
Lori Idlout NDP Nunavut, NU
Qujannamiik, Sherry.
To my colleague, I know how important your voice is in this important committee, and I appreciate you for sharing it with me.
Thank you to the women veterans who may be in this room for showing your support, and thank you both for appearing. Very specifically to Dr. Breeck, I really hope that the committee takes the sixth comment in your submission very seriously.
I want to ask you specifically about victims and survivors.
I see that, in this bill, for example, there's going to be a transfer of cases to civilian courts. I think we need to hear specifically what other resources, besides funding, will be needed for provinces and territories to make sure the victims' and survivors' representation is adequate, so that they get the justice they deserve.
Qujannamiik.
Medical Doctor, As an Individual
That's a big question.
By definition, hopefully, they're still in uniform. Again, their health services are still the responsibility of health services. I personally still feel that it is our responsibility, as the uniformed health services, to be doing as much as possible.
Obviously, if a health services person was the perpetrator, keeping the confidentiality and all the trust aside but providing full supports—mental, psychological, spiritual.... Again, I'm not highly religious, but I've always used the military chaplain system, and together, as an interdisciplinary team, we could have social workers, psychologists, physicians and chaplains helping to provide support in a more direct manner. When we keep saying it's somebody else's job, then nothing happens, and people fall through the cracks.
Sexual misconduct has largely been dealt with as something outside of the health care system instead of something embraced as a public health issue and an occupational health issue. We haven't been leading the parade in helping and supporting our victims in this area.
I am always humbled, especially when I see indigenous ways of recognizing the importance of looking at people holistically and making sure they're cared for, including peer support, community support and following some of the initiatives already done through an indigenous lens. I think all of the military would benefit from capturing that and bringing that into our world much more.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa
Thank you.
Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to suspend our meeting.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here today and for providing some insight.
To the members, we're going to be going into an in camera meeting for an anonymous witness. I'll also ask everyone except our members to leave the room. Can everyone please vacate and provide some privacy for this next meeting? That includes the staff.
Thank you.
The meeting is suspended.
[Proceedings continue in camera]