Evidence of meeting #15 for National Defence in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was civilian.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Le Scelleur  Veteran and Ph.D. Candidate, As an Individual
Chisholm  Master Warrant Officer (retired), As an Individual
Wood  As an Individual
Van Leusden  Director, Survivor Perspectives Consulting Group
Hill Rose  Peer Support Advocate, United Federation of Canadian Veterans
Therrien-Tremblay  Committee Researcher

The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting 15 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on National Defence. Pursuant to the motion adopted on October 23, 2025, the committee is meeting to resume consideration of Bill C-11, an act to amend the National Defence Act and other acts.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person or remotely via the Zoom application.

Before we begin, I ask all participants to consult the guidelines on the table. These measures are to help prevent audio feedback incidents and protect the health and safety of our interpreters.

I have a point of order from Mr. Savard-Tremblay.

Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would just like to make a brief comment.

We have gotten into the habit of ending meetings much later than the scheduled end time. Last week, we left 40 minutes late. It would be good if we were more disciplined and ended on time, because we all have busy schedules and often have other meetings planned. For example, today I have to be at my office by 10:30 a.m. sharp. It would be good to restore discipline in this regard, then.

The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa

Yes, the point is well taken. We did notify the committee, the last time, that there was going to be a 15-minute delay or extension. We all have demands, so I'll try to keep it on time.

Ms. Gallant, go ahead.

8:20 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON

Mr. Chairman, in the interest of time, I just want to let you know that if anybody from a non-party status decides they want to ask a question, I won't be giving unanimous consent.

The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa

That's fair enough.

I ask all participants, as I said, to address those guidelines. I would like to remind the witnesses and members to please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. If you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can. For interpretation, use your earpiece and select the appropriate channel—floor, English or French—and it is also available on Zoom. Again, all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Before we welcome the witnesses, I would like to provide a trigger warning. We may discuss very sensitive experiences of sexual misconduct, and this may be a cause of distress. If need be, please advise the clerk. It's important to recognize that these are difficult discussions, so let's try to be compassionate in our conversations.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses: William Chisholm, master warrant officer, retired; Hélène Le Scelleur, veteran and Ph.D. candidate, by video conferencing; Christine Wood; Donna Van Leusden, director of the Survivor Perspectives Consulting Group; and Diane Hill Rose, peer support advocate for the United Federation of Canadian Veterans.

I now invite Ms. Le Scelleur to make her opening statement.

You have up to five minutes.

Hélène Le Scelleur Veteran and Ph.D. Candidate, As an Individual

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today.

I appear before you as a veteran who served 26 years in the Canadian Armed Forces, as a Ph.D. candidate in social work, as a chair of the advisory council for veterans at the Chronic Pain Centre of Excellence, as a member of the women veterans council at Veterans Affairs Canada and as a survivor of sexual assault and ongoing harassment committed by a senior officer.

This harassment continued even while I was deployed abroad. A few days before deploying to Afghanistan, while I was a captain and the second-in-command of a company, the brigade commander, who later became a general, sexually assaulted me. Once deployed, the behaviour continued. There were persistent messages and he tracked my movements during an official visit. There was even an incident inside the tactical operations centre where he pressed his genitals against my workstation during an official briefing.

At no point in Canada or in Afghanistan did I have a safe avenue to report. I want to be very honest with you. I never reported. It was not because I misunderstood what happened, but because the risks were far too great—legally, professionally and personally. In Canada, reporting him meant entering a system he influenced. In Afghanistan, there was no civilian jurisdiction, no independent investigative body and no protective infrastructure.

For over 10 years, major reports—Deschamps, Fish and Arbour—have identified these same failures: lack of independence, conflict of interest, the absence of jurisdiction overseas, inadequate support mechanisms and a culture that protects rank before truth. Bill C-11 does not yet correct these structural gaps.

The first issue is independence. A survivor cannot be expected to navigate a process controlled by the person who harmed them. The second issue is extraterritorial jurisdiction. Statistics Canada shows that about one in five CAF members who were sexually assaulted experienced at least one assault during a deployment, yet abroad, all the protections envisioned by Bill C-11 simply vanish. The third issue is choice. Survivors must have the right to choose between civilian and military systems at all times, regardless of location or rank. Choice is not procedural. It is freedom: freedom from our aggressors and freedom from the silence that institutions have imposed upon us.

I want to be clear that even with this choice, neither system is sufficient on its own. The military system understands the operational context. The civilian system provides independence and oversight. This is why I believe the real reform must move toward a joint, hybrid investigative system that is culturally informed, trauma-informed, independent and capable of protecting survivors everywhere—in Canada and in deployment environments.

To move toward that vision, I offer the following recommendations.

Codify our survivors' right to choose a civilian or military pathway. Create an independent investigative body for cases involving senior officers. Establish an extraterritorial investigative mechanism for deployed personnel. Mandate rigorous, standardized, trauma-informed training across the system and introduce clear, enforceable consequences for senior leadership misconduct. Begin the development of a joint, hybrid civilian-military model that provides full, 360-degree protection.

Mr. Chair and members, my silence was not a personal failure. It was a predictable outcome of the gaps that still remain today. Bill C-11 must do better for those who currently serve, for those deployed abroad right now and for all those who, like me, carried the burden of silence because the system gave us no safe alternative.

Thank you. I'm ready to answer your questions.

The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa

Thank you for your opening statement.

Mr. Chisholm, you have up to five minutes.

William Chisholm Master Warrant Officer (retired), As an Individual

Thank you, Chair.

Members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to testify.

I worked at the sexual misconduct support and resource centre for two-plus years, often as the sole military liaison member, and always as the only non-commissioned member. I'm not a counsellor or lawyer, but an aircraft mechanic. My job as the military liaison officer was to assist the chain of command in negotiating sensitive conversations and help the affected member with military hurdles, and I also assisted alleged perpetrators with the process.

I just retired, after 40-plus years of service. I've seen a lot of change. I actually lived through the purge in Cold Lake in the early 1980s. I've been part of the good change as a harassment adviser and as the military liaison officer. I've had the benefit of shaping some of the new policy, and I know that the military leaders are moving forward in addressing sexual misconduct—and all misconduct, for that matter.

I submitted the SMSRC annual report, the decision tree and the terms of reference for the position I filled. Keep in mind that the numbers in the report only reflect those who have called in to the SMSRC. The number of cases involving the military liaison team was 929 in four years. I'm here to speak to some of the failings.

There was work on the decision tree in 2024. I was unable to find anything online that has changed it since the original. The decision tree is geared towards the alleged perpetrator being guilty, and the revised one was as well. Recent changes to the DAOD removed the duty to report, which has most likely decreased the number of reported cases but certainly did not lower the number of cases.

I'm here to provide a grassroots opinion, and it can be summarized by saying that this bill will not change the conduct of service personnel, and it will remove choice from those who are affected.

I welcome your questions.

The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa

Thank you, Mr. Chisholm.

Ms. Wood, you have up to five minutes as well.

Christine Wood As an Individual

Good morning, Mr. Chair, committee members and my fellow witnesses.

My name is Christine Wood. I'm a Canadian Armed Forces veteran and a long-time advocate for military sexual trauma survivors. I have served on the sexual misconduct support and resource centre's external advisory council for the last five years. I am appearing here today as an individual with extensive lived experience.

In my first 18 months in uniform, I experienced almost every form of sexual aggression on the sexual misconduct spectrum. I did not report anything until I reported a rape to the military police. I would never have considered going to civilian police or pursuing justice in a civilian court. If it were all happening again today, my choices would remain the same.

I'm absolutely opposed to the transfer of military sexual offences to the civilian justice system. I support the creation of an independent system of justice for sexual crimes within the military. I support it because the CAF must uphold their own good order and discipline. That responsibility is essential for transparency and accountability. Limiting survivors to a single pathway to justice weakens our agency rather than strengthening it. We want choices.

To be clear, I'm not defending the status quo. The military justice system also failed me. However, replacing one system that's broken with another system that completely and consistently fails victims of sexual offences does not create justice. It simply relocates the problem, and it removes the responsibility of the CAF for fixing it.

Transferring all Criminal Code sexual offences will, in my view, increase the number of high-harm incidents. Low-level sexual misconduct must be both reported and pursued, because these are the early warning signs of a toxic, sexualized culture. Requiring a young, newly enrolled CAF member to walk into an RCMP detachment to report a low-level incident is unrealistic, and it will suppress reporting.

The federal ombudsperson for victims of crime just released a report on November 25 of this year. It soberingly reminds us that only 6% of civilian victims of sexual offences report to police. Of those reports, fewer than 40% lead to charges, fewer than half of those reach trial, and fewer than half of those result in a conviction. Then, fewer than half of those who are convicted actually receive jail time. It's a half of a half of a half of a half of a half. I don't know anyone who would want their son or daughter to rely on those odds.

My father certainly didn't. In 1986, my dad, Justice Michael Bolan, ruled in R v. Askov that trial delays were systemic and institutional. When the Supreme Court upheld his decision in 1990, almost 50,000 cases were stayed. The system was broken 40 years ago. It's still broken, and it has become even less responsive to victims of sexual crime because of R v. Jordan.

Civilian actors, police, prosecutors, defence counsel and judges do not have guaranteed training, resources or the military cultural awareness required to handle military sexual offences. It should never fall to a traumatized CAF member to explain rank, chain of command, deployments, power dynamics or career consequences to the civilian actors involved. That is not trauma-informed justice.

I urge an amendment to keep low-level and low-harm offences under military jurisdiction. I support adding a two- to five-year sunset clause. Finally, I ask for an amendment that allows victims the choice of jurisdiction until both systems demonstrate that justice will not remain elusive and survivors will not remain invisible.

Please do not rush this bill. Not enough survivors were meaningfully consulted before the reintroduction of this bill, and too many elements of this complex and wicked problem are being left unaddressed.

My dad always looked out for the underdog. If he were alive today, I believe he'd be horrified to learn that members of an institution he served in, revered and supported his whole life have become the very underdogs he so fiercely fought to protect. We can and we must do better.

Thank you. I welcome your questions.

The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa

Thank you, Ms. Wood.

Ms. Van Leusden, you have up to five minutes.

Donna Van Leusden Director, Survivor Perspectives Consulting Group

I want everyone to close their eyes.

While your eyes are closed, I want you to think back to the last time you had sex. I want you to remember everything about the last time—sights, sounds, tastes and everything.

Think about your partner. Was it someone you knew? Was it someone new?

Who started it? Who undressed whom first? What colour of underwear was your partner wearing? Do any of them have any scars, tattoos or anything unusual? Do you? Do you know how long you were there, when it started and when it stopped? I want you to remember it in minute detail.

When you're ready, open your eyes.

Now, imagine if we made you go around the room and share your last sexual experience. It should be easy, right? It's something you participated in and hopefully enjoyed. It's not a violation. You weren't traumatized by it, and yet we do that with no understanding of how to support a survivor when they do come forward.

My name is Donna Van Leusden. I'm a Canadian Armed Forces veteran and the co-founder of a national program that teaches leaders, peers and communities how to support survivors of sexual violence, regardless of whether there is an investigation, regardless of whether charges are laid and regardless of judicial outcome. We teach that a “not guilty” verdict does not mean it did not happen and that survivor support must never hinge on the outcome of a legal process. That context informs everything I'm about to say.

I want to discuss this from the perspective of someone who's lived inside the system as a survivor, as an officer, and as someone who spent years supporting others who carry similar scars.

This bill removes choice from survivors and reduces flexibility. For many years, survivors in the Canadian Forces had limited or flawed options, but they still had options. Under this bill, for Criminal Code sexual offences committed in Canada, survivors are given none. Everything has to go directly to civilian police and civilian courts, regardless of what the survivor needs, prefers or feels safe with. That is not trauma-informed, and that is not survivor-centred. It may offer less flexibility than the military system ever did.

Civilian courts are already overwhelmed, and Jordan applications are rising at an alarming rate. In 2017, about 15% of adult sexual assault cases exceeded Jordan timelines. By 2023, that number doubled to 30%. Nearly half of those were stayed or the files were withdrawn. Two cases involving CAF members, including one incredibly high-profile case, already collapsed under Jordan delays.

Charge-laying is decreasing even as reporting increases. Between 2015 and 2019, the proportion of police-reported sexual assault cases that resulted in charges dropped from 42% to 36%. That means fewer survivors received their day in court, despite increased willingness to report.

Conviction rates in civilian courts appear higher, but the comparison is misleading. Civilian conviction rates for sexual assaults hover around 55%, while military convictions may be closer to 28%. However, the civilian system filters cases heavily before they reach trial, creating a selective rather than effective system.

Civilian courts are not consistently trauma-informed. The London Hockey Canada trial is a powerful example. In the 91-page ruling, the judge framed normal trauma responses, fragmented memories, disassociation and delayed reporting as credibility failures. This reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of trauma science. Survivors' memories are not linear. They're sensory, fragmented and often disordered. Yet the ruling treated these reactions as evidence against the complainant.

Another example is the Jacob Hoggard case. It took nearly 10 years from the initial complaint to the final conclusion. For one survivor, that decade represented 10 years of emotional paralysis, reliving the assault and existing in a judicial limbo with no certainty and no closure. That is not justice. It's slow, grinding institutional harm and a stark reminder that the civilian system is already overburdened.

If all military sexual assault cases move to civilian court, these systemic issues will not disappear; they will multiply.

I am a survivor of a summary trial. I was questioned by my offender. I relived the assault under this questioning. The day I was assaulted, I stood there alone, still carrying his semen on my body, and I remember thinking that the institution I served, the country I served, has abandoned me. However, at least he was convicted in a case that would never have been prosecuted in the civilian system.

Number two, we had a colonel with multiple victims. This was another offender shared by two of us, a year apart, at two different basic training serials. He eventually became a senior officer. When we came forward, he simply declined to speak with the police, and charges were never laid. We know there are other victims out there, but there's no way to reach them.

In terms of my right to choose, I had a case that went to civilian court. I was asked if I wanted to proceed, and I said yes. The case was ultimately dismissed before the official plea. People asked me if everything involved in reporting him was worth it. It was. For 25 years, I thought of my rapist every day. I was not the woman, mother, officer, daughter or sister I should have been. He stole that from me, and I bet none of that crossed his mind, not even once. I bet I never crossed his mind, not even once. However, when he was arrested, when he had to hire a lawyer and when he had to explain himself to his friends and family, I bet he thought about me then. That gave me closure, and it mattered because I had the choice.

Being assaulted removes any sense of agency. We have to help give some of that back.

Any reform that removes survivor choice is not a reform. Any reform that transfers cases into an under-resourced system is not a solution. Any reform that ignores trauma justice is not justice.

Survivors deserve options. Survivors deserve resources. Survivors deserve trauma-informed systems. We deserve to be heard and, above all, we deserve choice.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa

Thank you.

Ms. Rose, you have up to five minutes.

Diane Hill Rose Peer Support Advocate, United Federation of Canadian Veterans

My name is Diane Rose. I'm a veteran of the CAF. I lead the largest national organization for peer support of MST in Canada. I'm committed to advocating for victims and survivors of MST because I am one. I'm a gang rape survivor.

For more than three decades since my release, I have provided boots-on-the-ground support to victims in crisis. From accompanying victims to the hospital to sitting next to them in court, I have become known as the woman who will go in no matter what.

My main areas of concern with Bill C-11 revolve around the fact that this is a legal, policy-driven solution to a human problem. It's trying to fix people problems with words, and we all know that culture eats policy for breakfast.

Bill C-11 has not been drafted to serve victims or witnesses of sexual crimes. It offers very few choices and options to an individual. The bill is not being designed to address OUTCAN deployment and attached postings. It has no provisions in it that outline the protection of physical evidence collected by MPs while OUTCAN. Most bases in Canada aren't able to do this either, and they should be.

Do I need to define OUTCAN? Do you know that? Okay.

I'm concerned that the SMSRC is bound by privacy policies that prevent them from approaching victims, leaving it to traumatized victims to find their own resources or hope that the civilian police or health care providers dealing with them know about the SMSRC and are willing to recommend it to the victim.

Not everyone trusts the SMSRC, for a variety of reasons.

First, the SMSRC can be hard to find. Not everybody knows about the organization, because it has no visibility on major military bases. I spent this summer travelling through eastern Canada, and I took it upon myself to visit as many bases as possible. In most cases, not a single sign, poster or card was displayed anywhere that provided information about the SMSRC. I spoke to chaplains at many of these bases, and they knew nothing about the SMSRC's existence. I spoke to MPs on these bases, and many of them reported having no knowledge of SMSRC's existence.

I take issue with the director of SMSRC testifying before this committee to guarantee that SMSRC will be able to offer support to victims of sexual crimes when the offences are being tried in civilian court going forward, given the fact that many people have a hard time finding the SMSRC.

I have personally been to many civilian courts and courts martial to monitor the situation and to be there in case support was needed. The SMSRC was not at any of these trials, citing lack of awareness of the trial taking place as the reason. Due to this, I am extremely worried that the provision in the bill surrounding victim liaison officers and victim survivor services will further separate the SMSRC from complaints and contribute to fractured support systems. I'm also concerned that the cases transferred to the civilian system without guaranteed founding, training and resources will retraumatize the complainant.

I highlight that sections 80 through 90 deal with SMSRC and VLOs. These clauses need to be reviewed and amended to re-place survivors at the centre. I also support the two- to five-year sunset clause on the bill.

The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa

Thank you to all of you for your opening remarks.

We are going to proceed with the first round of six minutes, and with you, Mr. Kibble.

8:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jeff Kibble Conservative Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank our panel for their service and, honestly, their very powerful testimony. I will acknowledge the courage it took for all of you to share that today. If my questions make you uncomfortable, please let me know, and I'll move to a different question. I truly respect what you've done today.

I have only a few minutes, so I won't be able to ask questions of everyone.

Mr. Chisholm, thank you for the work you've done at the SMSRC. Could you briefly describe some of the duties of a liaison officer and maybe share how many cases you dealt with as a liaison officer in your time there?

8:40 a.m.

Master Warrant Officer (retired), As an Individual

William Chisholm

Yes, sir.

I was mortified when I found out the number of cases involving the MLO, and they are only a percentage of the number that the SMSRC call in. I personally dealt with over 500 cases in two years, and some of those cases were double-dipping, where I would talk to the chain of command or the affected member.

My job was almost a template. I was there to help affected members with military hurdles. It could be leave. It could be dealing with the chain of command, etc. A good portion was assisting the chain of command with manoeuvring through sexual misconduct and their policies. These chains of command, these commanding officers and chiefs, don't deal with this every day, thank goodness, and I did. I would tell them the steps to go through and give them and the affected members choices.

8:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jeff Kibble Conservative Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Can I just interject and ask whether, in that part of the process, victims were ever advised of the opportunity to progress in both civilian and military justice systems?

8:40 a.m.

Master Warrant Officer (retired), As an Individual

William Chisholm

I believe in the SMSRC they weren't, but as an MLO, I always told them they had a choice.

8:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jeff Kibble Conservative Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Thank you.

Were you or anyone at SMSRC ever consulted on Bill C-11 in your time there?

8:40 a.m.

Master Warrant Officer (retired), As an Individual

8:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jeff Kibble Conservative Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Okay.

In your opinion, based on the 500-plus cases you dealt with, do you feel that victims would have been better served knowing that there was a choice, and also having a choice, of being able to go between civilian and military systems?

8:45 a.m.

Master Warrant Officer (retired), As an Individual

William Chisholm

Absolutely, sir. I believe the civilian system has failed our victims. I spoke to one last night who identifies as a victim. She believes that going civilian ended her career.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

Jeff Kibble Conservative Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chisholm.

Ms. Le Scelleur, thank you for the work you do on the women veterans council and some of the other organizations.

Have you spoken to many other victims? I would also be interested in your own opinion, as would the committee, on whether or not there should be a choice of civilian or military systems of justice.

8:45 a.m.

Veteran and Ph.D. Candidate, As an Individual

Hélène Le Scelleur

For the people I've been interacting with, most of them were scared to either report or just share their story of what they'd been through. Choice was not offered, necessarily. For most of the ones I was interacting with, it was never something they had envisioned.

For me, this is why choice is really, really important at all levels. Even if we say now that it was always there, and that the choice was possible, some of them never reported, like me, because they were scared and knew the consequences. I would say that choice is offered maybe on paper, but is it the case in reality? From most stories I've heard, it's not the case.