National Defence Committee on Nov. 27th, 2025

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

What about the military court? Was there any chance that there were conversations going on between the lawyers and the chain of command?

[William Chisholm]

I believe, for the betterment of the system, that there has to be some discussion between the lawyers. I believe the lawyers should have some knowledge about the personnel record of that person.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

Was the principle of unlimited liability ever raised as a way to discourage any of our witnesses from reporting?

Ms. Wood.

[Christine Wood]

I'm not familiar with that term.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

Donna, was the principle of unlimited liability ever used as a rationale for you not to report?

[Donna Van Leusden]

I can tell you that I have friends and colleagues who reported.... I'm thinking of one in particular, who was in the navy and was told flat out that it would be very easy for her to have an accident.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

I didn't hear what you just said.

[Donna Van Leusden]

It would be very easy for her to have an accident on a ship. There have definitely been incidents like that.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

Diane, have you heard that term?

[Diane Hill Rose]

Yes, I heard something a couple of weeks ago: “If my MOBI is missing, I know I'm going overboard at three.” A MOBI is a transmitter that the navy officers wear on their uniforms. If they hit the water, it goes off and it's a beacon. You know that if your MOBI is missing, you're going overboard at three o'clock. That's quite common in the navy. You can't talk in the navy. You just can't. You're gone. You're done.

In Afghanistan, I've heard many cases of a fear of being fragged.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

What's fragged?

[Donna Van Leusden]

It's the fear of being eliminated by your own people. Being in the military and being a survivor means trying to find a balance between recognizing that you need to be able to trust your leaders and your peers with your life, but you can't trust them with your body.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

Ms. Le Scelleur, were you ever told that there is unlimited liability, that whatever happens in the military isn't their fault and not to report, or was it implied in your case?

[Hélène Le Scelleur]

I think it was more implied than told. I'm familiar with the term. For me, when we look back a few years ago, I would say decades ago, an officer had the right over your life. I guess it's implicit that today something a bit like that is still going on, not necessarily in an open way of saying it. However, unlimited liability is also about excellence and honour, and when you see your superiors acting against that, then you question this terminology, this principle, that is driving our service.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you.

Ms. Van Leusden, you had your hand up. Do you have something to say?

[Donna Van Leusden]

I said it. It was about Ms. Gallant's question about people being threatened.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you.

Mr. Watchorn, you have up to five minutes.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I find what we are hearing today very disturbing. I have a hard time seeing how trust can be established in such an environment. I understand that this is very difficult for you.

Ms. Wood, before the meeting began today, I had a brief discussion with you about the Quebec justice system. As you know, Quebec is ahead of the curve in this area. It has established a specialized court for sexual and domestic violence. Judges, prosecutors and all those involved in this system receive specialized training specific to their role. I heard you say that this was necessary.

Do you have any comments on the Quebec system? If this system were replicated in all provinces, would you have more confidence in the civil justice system? In your opinion, how could this system be implemented?

I'll start by hearing Ms. Wood's response.

[Christine Wood]

I am very impressed with what I know and what I have heard about the Quebec system, and I believe that it does go a long way, or it could go a long way, toward increasing trust and confidence in a civilian system with those resources. I absolutely would love to see that system rolled out across all provinces and territories. Sexual assault is the least reported, the least charged and the least convicted crime. It's obviously different from other crimes, and it needs a different system, so I support the work that you've done and would fully support seeing how it could work, yes.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Ms. Van Leusden, what is your opinion on this same question?

[Donna Van Leusden]

I think that it's key. I think that we need to have people trained in sexual trauma. It's the only crime in which you're a witness and evidence. The only way for them to defend their client is to attack the evidence, which means to attack you, so you're up there, and you're trying to defend yourself against this. It's also one of the few crimes that you have to prove you didn't consent to. Nobody asks the victim of attempted murder if they consented to that, but this becomes a question here. I think it is vital to have a specially trained... I would love to see something like that.

I do think, though, that the military culture piece needs to be included. I'm not sure if that would be in terms of having advisers, partnerships or something like that, but it is a different world. It is something that not a lot of people know and understand. Having somebody who can order you into harm's way also be your rapist is a different experience altogether. I know that in the States, Brigadier General Sutton compared it to incest. It cuts so deeply, and it undermines everything about wearing a uniform, so I would love to see a system where they have a dedicated court system for sexual crimes.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

What do you think, Ms. Rose?

[Diane Hill Rose]

I think we need to take this up to the UN and NATO areas as well, because we need to have the same laws all the way across who we're serving with. Your brigadier general may not be a Canadian when you go overseas. My rape doesn't count once I leave this country.

We also need to get rid of the dinosaurs who are still in the system. Recently a civilian contractor with DND said to another civilian who was raped in Latvia, “What did you expect?” Why is this guy on our tax dollars' payroll?

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Ms. Le Scelleur, I'll ask you the same question. I don't want to exclude you, even though you're attending the meeting through video conference.

[Hélène Le Scelleur]

I think it's an excellent idea to use a dedicated court. That's somewhat the idea I proposed during my testimony. However, as Ms. Van Leusden said, I also believe that legal advisors from the military should be involved in the process to ensure an understanding of the organizational culture.

It is important that this specialized court also be able to support deployed personnel. The entire system must take into account not only those who serve in Canada, but also those who serve around the world.