Evidence of meeting #15 for National Defence in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was civilian.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
Ms. Le Scelleur, I see that you have your hand raised. I wanted to ask you what you think about this as well.
Veteran and Ph.D. Candidate, As an Individual
Personally, I see this decision as a step forward. However, as I mentioned in my testimony, we need a certain combination of judicial systems. The organizational culture of the Canadian Armed Forces is unique. As mentioned earlier, we need certain actions to be dealt with within the military disciplinary system. However, combining this approach with procedures in the civilian justice system would allow for a truly different level of accountability and a standardization of procedures that would better serve people. In fact, it could even become a model for the civilian population.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
I would like to use the minute I have left to digress and ask the analysts and the chair a question.
Amendment proposals are often deemed inadmissible if they go too far against the spirit of the bill. My question is hypothetical, but I just want to get an idea. In the current context, would amendments that offer this freedom of choice be deemed inadmissible?
I don't know if you have an immediate answer to that question. If not, I would like you to provide us with an answer fairly quickly, ideally in writing, so that we don't have to wait until next week to get it.
Anne-Marie Therrien-Tremblay Committee Researcher
That is a question that the legislative clerks' team could answer.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
Could the question be forwarded to that team?
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
That's perfect.
I would now like to return to the issue of specialized courts.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa
I'm sorry, Mr. Savard-Tremblay, we're out of time.
We have Ms. Gallant for five minutes.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to hear rapidly from each witness what year they were released from the military, starting with you, Mr. Chisholm.
Master Warrant Officer (retired), As an Individual
It was November 11, 2024.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON
Mr. Chisholm, we heard from the provost marshal general that a lot has changed in the last 10 years and that the military police and the whole structure are very well equipped to handle assaults of a sexual nature.
In your observations, before you were released, would you please tell me if that would be factual or if that's what you saw reflected?
Master Warrant Officer (retired), As an Individual
In my opinion, the provost general is working at a level way above the actual level of the workers. The victim I spoke to last night was embarrassed by how poorly the military police handled her case, which was a pat on the bum at work. The military police pointed the fingers at the CO, and the CO pointed the fingers at the MPs. Do I believe they have improved since I joined? Yes. Do I believe they are adequately able to investigate major criminal cases of a sexual nature? I would say no.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON
Are these criminal cases of the nature of a sexual assault that would not automatically be sent to the...or murder?
Master Warrant Officer (retired), As an Individual
It would possibly be with any criminal cases because, as the CAF is so under-manned, they are not trained to the level of a civilian investigator.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON
We also heard that the military criminal justice system is separate and apart from the chain of command, that there's no interference from the chain of command. Can you substantiate or verify whether that is true?
Master Warrant Officer (retired), As an Individual
That's a good question. I believe they intend to be separate and independent. I believe the military police and the CFNIS believe they are independent. I think there could be some direction, but I'm not aware at what level.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON
Ms. Le Scelleur, in your comments you said that you knew what the consequences would be if you reported. What were those consequences?
Veteran and Ph.D. Candidate, As an Individual
For example, the day after he assaulted me, I received a phone call, and it was not solicited. He said, “Do you know who it is?” I said, “I'm not sure”, and he said his name. He said, “You probably know how I got your number. Because I'm the brigade commander, I can have access to any information I want.”
For me, it was clear that because it was the commander of the brigade in which I was in a unit, if I were to just report something, my reporting would eventually be known. For sure, there are consequences. I was wondering if I would be relieved, tossed away from my deployment in Afghanistan. When it happened in Afghanistan, what would be the consequences? If I were to talk about a newly appointed general who was visiting as an official person, I would be relieved from my duty, for sure.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON
Ms. Wood, you said that there should be an independent system for dealing with sexual assault. Independent from what or whom?
As an Individual
In my view, and from what I've seen, I like the idea of something similar to.... What is it in the States?