Evidence of meeting #15 for National Defence in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was civilian.
A recording is available from Parliament.
As an Individual
Yes.
I envision it being under DND, not under CAF. I envision some kind of a Chinese firewall, something that would separate the two but that would still allow for accountability and transparency.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON
Where would the judges come from in this separate system that would be independent from CAF and the civilian courts?
As an Individual
It's a good question. My impulse is to answer that they should be military judges. I have given some thought to the idea of the DMP, the director of military prosecutions. I'm wondering if there should be a dual role there, an overlap with a civilian authority and the military. I'm also wondering about staggering their terms so that there's continuity going forward.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa
Thank you, Ms. Wood and Ms. Gallant.
Mr. Watchorn, you have up to five minutes.
Liberal
Tim Watchorn Liberal Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would like to thank all the witnesses for being here. I admire their courage. Being here with us is really not easy.
Today, we are trying to work on a bill to improve the situation of victims. That is what we want. That is the goal of everyone around this table: We want victims to be treated well and their cases to be properly assessed in the system.
Today, we have talked a lot about the concept of choice. Justice Arbour consulted 14,000 people before recommending that sexual assault cases be transferred from the military justice system to the civilian justice system. That is really what she established in her recommendation.
I would like to quote Professor Megan MacKenzie, who highlights a certain perspective.
Professor MacKenzie said:
I would just reiterate that the idea that having a choice is somehow better for survivors is actually inaccurate for most of the victims and survivors that I've spoken to. In the moments following an incident of sexual violence, it is very difficult for a victim to understand the consequences and the complexity of that choice. The default position for many survivors is to work within the military justice system, not because they think it's better but because that's the system they're in. It's the institution they trust.
You have spoken to that today.
She went on to say:
Many survivors, after that process, wished that they had been given a different option and are not satisfied with the choice.
We know from that same research I mentioned that there are examples of plea bargains within the military justice system being used in cases of serious sexual assault. These allow individuals to plead guilty to lesser military-specific disciplinary offences, like disgraceful conduct, to avoid a Criminal Code conviction.
For me, I think this idea that giving victims or survivors a choice is somehow “adding” is a misnomer. It does not enhance their experience.
I know you have contrary opinions to all of this, but I'd just like your perspective on what Dr. MacKenzie said. How do you view that opinion?
I'd like to start with Ms. Wood, if possible.
As an Individual
Thank you for that very important question.
I believe that Ms. MacKenzie's work has focused extensively on high-harm, high-risk incidents. I believe the title of her book is Good Soldiers Don't Rape.
I believe that, as I said in my opening statement, requiring a newly minted member to go into an RCMP detachment to report a low-level harm is just unrealistic.
I apologize that I'm not at my best today, committee. I am usually better. I would love to be able to submit some answers in writing later.
Liberal
Tim Watchorn Liberal Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC
That would be excellent. I'm sorry.
Ms. Van Leusden, would you like to chime in?
Director, Survivor Perspectives Consulting Group
I agree, but I think for what we'd consider the high-harm behaviours, the civilian court system is potentially preferable.
I have both ends because I went through a summary trial, and it was a case that would not have been prosecuted if it had been on the civilian side. I'm very aware of the fact that in that case, the military system was better, but I have also had a couple of files crawl their way up the civilian side.
Again, the important thing is that we're looking at it and we're trying to come up with a solution. There's not going to be anything that's one-size-fits-all, but one piece that's really being missed—it's the same thing the CAF missed with all of its training—is that whatever solution we come forward with, those people have to be trained in how to support survivors through it.
Dr. MacKenzie commented that people are feeling dissatisfied with the outcome. There is no outcome that would make it better. If my rapist had gotten up, walked out of the room, gotten hit by a bus and been vaporized, I would still have had to process what happened to me. It wouldn't have mattered one iota that they weren't on this planet anymore. It's not enough.
We have to be really cautious about having survivors wrap that verdict up in “that's what they need”, because, at the end of the day, regardless of what the outcome is, it's not enough.
Liberal
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa
Your time is up.
To our witnesses, you are doing great.
Ms. Wood, your testimony is very much appreciated. You can bring it in writing. You're doing great. We don't want you to feel any pressure here, but whatever makes you feel better in terms of writing a response is appropriate. I'll give you time, as well, as necessary.
As an Individual
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm usually better with my words. I really apologize that I'm not as articulate this morning as I usually am. I'm a little embarrassed.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa
There's no need to apologize. Your words are strong and you're very brave for being here. We appreciate that.
Monsieur Savard-Tremblay, you have two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Wood, I wanted to ask you a question, but I feel a little bad doing so after what you just said. Would you prefer that I ask someone else?
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
Okay.
Why do you, as a survivor, think it is important to fully understand all aspects of sexual assault in the military? Of all the possible measures, from adopting leadership policies to legislative changes, why would this be the most important issue for the Canadian Armed Forces to address?
Take your time. If necessary, we can suspend the meeting if it becomes difficult for you. Don't worry, we can wait until you feel comfortable.
As an Individual
I would like to answer this. Thank you so much for that question.
Through my experience, and over the last 10 years, I have seen that military sexual trauma and abuse within the service are the single biggest predictor of future problems. With housing insecurity, homelessness, reduced income after release, a difficult time transitioning and the risk of suicide, military sexual trauma is at the heart of those problems. If we do not get it right, we are leaving all those other problems out there hanging. We have committees going on right now talking about suicide prevention. Why are we not talking about MST in that committee?
I would love to submit more later, but truly, I feel like MST is at the nexus.
Director, Survivor Perspectives Consulting Group
In the United States, after the release of the film The Invisible War, a study was conducted among people who had been discharged from the U.S. armed forces.
If they are not given the appropriate support at first disclosure, they leave voluntarily within a year. That's one out of every two survivors. That's not including people currently going through their exit from the CAF due to vicarious trauma, due to supporting somebody through the system and being injured. We are losing people in droves, and nobody wants to join an organization that is on the cover of the newspaper every other week for being hateful or full of rapists.
We have to fix this issue. It is now a national security issue. I can't help but feel like everybody just wants it to go away without fixing it. We need to start addressing this.
Conservative
Scott Anderson Conservative Vernon—Lake Country—Monashee, BC
First of all, Mr. Chisholm, have you had an opportunity to go through Bill C-11?
Master Warrant Officer (retired), As an Individual
Not clause by clause, sir—it's very legalese—but I have read it and I've made notes of some issues that I feel are there.
Conservative
Scott Anderson Conservative Vernon—Lake Country—Monashee, BC
If we were able to take out the provisions that limit choice and allow people to go into either civilian or military as they chose, would you amend the bill that way?