National Defence Committee on Dec. 4th, 2025

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 17 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on National Defence. Pursuant to the order of reference from the House referred to the committee on November 7, the committee is meeting to commence consideration of the supplementary estimates (B), 2025-26.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person and remotely by using the Zoom application.

Before we continue, I ask participants to consult the guidelines on the table. These measures are to help prevent audio and feedback incidents and to protect the health and safety of the interpreters.

I'd like to remind the witnesses and members to please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. If you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, use the “hand raise” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can. For interpretation, use your earpiece and select the appropriate channel of floor, English or French. It's also available on Zoom. Again, all comments should be addressed through the chair.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses.

We have the Honourable David McGuinty, Minister of National Defence; Caroline Xavier, chief of the Communications Security Establishment; Stefanie Beck, deputy minister, Department of National Defence; Lieutenant-General Stephen Kelsey, vice-chief of the defence staff, Canadian Armed Forces; Marc Mes, deputy commissioner on behalf of the commissioner, Canadian Coast Guard; Jonathan Moor, chief financial officer, Department of National Defence; and Heather Sheehy, assistant deputy minister, materiel, Department of National Defence.

With that, I would now like to invite the minister to make his opening statement.

You have up to five minutes, sir.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, members of the committee.

Thank you for inviting me to appear before you today to discuss the 2025-26 supplementary estimates (B) for the Department of National Defence, the Communications Security Establishment and the Canadian Coast Guard.

Mr. Chair, it's been about seven months since I was appointed and honoured to become Canada's Minister of National Defence. During that time, the Government of Canada has taken bold action to rebuild, rearm and reinvest in our military after—I think we would all agree—decades of chronic underfunding.

In an increasingly dangerous and unpredictable world, the Canadian Armed Forces need state-of-the-art capabilities to defend every inch of our territory, especially in the Arctic and our maritime approaches, and to meet our commitments as a reliable ally.

That brings me to the supplementary estimates (B), which are before us today and which were tabled in the House on November 7, 2025.

The additional funding that we are requesting today will help us continue our work to strengthen Canada's sovereignty, security and prosperity.

These are priorities that I believe we all share.

In total, National Defence is requesting $1.1 billion more in funding, almost the same amount that would be transferred to other federal organizations, resulting in an overall net increase of $35.6 million. This would bring the department's total authorities to $46.7 billion for the fiscal year to date.

These estimates reflect a combination of recently approved Treasury Board submissions and re-profiles associated with major capital projects. Of note, these include $476 million re-profiled for the future fighter capability project and $295 million for 17 projects through the capital investment fund that are ready for further funding, including housing for primary reserve units, uncrewed aircraft systems and more. It includes $215 million re-profiled for the River-class destroyer project, $59 million for the domestic ammunition production initiative, $4.8 million for Arctic over-the-horizon radar and many more projects.

We are also asking Canadian Coast Guard officials to support emergency towing services on the west coast.

In total, this funding request is offset by over $1.077 billion in transfers to other federal departments and agencies, including $36.5 million to the Communications Security Establishment.

Most of these transfers will support initial investments in our new defence industrial strategy—the first ever for Canada. The strategy will ensure that CAF members have the infrastructure and the equipment they need to defend our country and to support our allies. It will also prioritize investments that boost the Canadian economy and that create opportunities for our homegrown defence businesses to thrive, from small start-ups to larger, established anchor firms.

Through budget 2025, we will see a historic increase in defence funding to $81.8 billion over five years, beginning this fiscal year.

That includes over $9 billion from the funding announcement made by the Prime Minister on June 9, which was approved in the supplementary estimates (A).

Coupled with the estimates before us today, these investments will strengthen the readiness and resilience of the Canadian Armed Forces for decades to come, and it's long overdue. Our goal is clear: to give those who serve Canada the equipment, infrastructure, modern technology and support they need right now to do the critical work we ask of them right now. In uncertain and volatile times, this is what Canadians expect, and we cannot afford delay.

Before I conclude, I would like to take a moment to acknowledge the work this committee has undertaken in studying Bill C-11. I understand the committee has just concluded its substantive meetings and will shortly undertake clause-by-clause analysis. I believe, and I hope, the legislation before you takes the necessary steps to increase trust and transparency for victims and survivors of sexual misconduct in the Canadian Armed Forces.

With that, I am now ready to take your questions.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you, Minister.

We're starting our first round of questioning, and it goes to Mr. Bezan.

You have up to six minutes, sir.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for appearing today on supplementary estimates (B).

You mentioned that there is $476 million here for future fighter jet capability. I'm just wondering about this. We saw in a CBC story that the F-35 beat the Gripen fighter jet by a mile in the 2021 defence department competition. In your report and recommendations to the Prime Minister on this review, did you let him know that the F-35 beat the Gripen by a mile?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

As you know, Mr. Bezan, replacing that CF-18 fleet will represent the most significant investment in the Royal Canadian Air Force probably ever. As directed by the Prime Minister, we are reviewing this decision to ensure that the F-35 continues to be the best choice for Canada. Canada will take the time we need to get this right. We are continuing with our commitment to remain on track for scheduled aircraft deliveries.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

In your advice to the Prime Minister, did you let him know that the F-35 scored 57.1 out of 60 points, or 95%, that it beat the Gripen in every area of mission performance, upgradability, sustainment, technical criteria and capability delivery, and that the Gripen only scored 19.7 points out of 60, which is 33%?

Did you make sure the Prime Minister was aware of that? As CBC reported, it won “by a mile” in the capabilities and is the best aircraft for our Royal Canadian Air Force.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

As you know, Mr. Bezan, the review continues, and it will continue until it's complete. I am quite sure that the kinds of metrics you're alluding to and referring to will find their way into the final report.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Are you aware, Minister, that Brazil is also buying Gripens and is assembling them in Brazil? Were you aware that its production has been delayed by eight years?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

We are aware of the situation with respect to Saab and the production of the Gripen in Brazil and elsewhere.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Are you aware that the cost overruns could have bought more fighter jets, but now they have to kick the can down the road because of the lack of supplies and deliveries for the Gripen fighter jets for the Brazilian Air Force?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

We are aware of all of the matters you're referring to, yes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

That's good, because the costs have risen there.

Are you also aware that the production line for the Gripens in Brazil only created 110 staff directly on the production line and that 350 more were trained across the design, flight testing, production and maintenance sides? That's a total of only 460 jobs created in Brazil for the Gripens they're building there as well as for all of Latin America. They're not the numbers that were getting thrown around here—10,000 jobs—when Saab actually employs only 8,000 themselves in Sweden. Are you aware that—

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

For your benefit, I've been studiously trying to avoid commentary in social media and other media—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

At the same time, you're the main adviser to the Prime Minister on the selection of our next fighter jet. The F-35 won the competition here.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

You're right in calling upon us to focus on the facts, which is what we're doing.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Okay.

You're aware that the Czech Republic is also buying the F-35 to replace their Gripens.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I'm aware that there are eight founding countries that were involved in standing up the F-35, including Canada, and there are something like 13 to 14 additional customers.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

That's good. The F-35 was also selected by Finland in a very vigorous competition and again won on every part of their analysis over Super Hornets, Gripens and Rafales, and it was also the cheapest option, in their minds.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I'm aware of all of that—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Fantastic.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

—and it will be part of the review presented to the Prime Minister.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Fair enough. For your recommendations to the Prime Minister, have you done a survey at all of our fighter pilots to see what fighter jet they prefer to fly? If the decision is to buy the Gripen, are they going to stay in the air force?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I'm quite sure that the review being undertaken will reach out to the folks who run the Royal Canadian Air Force and will get their operational and other input.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Can you tell us how many fighter pilots we have currently in the Royal Canadian Air Force?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

No, I am not in a position to tell you that, because there are a number of folks who are being trained. The recruitment is up.

It is a very difficult thing to find a pilot. I'm told that it takes about 1,000 applicants to produce one fighter aircraft pilot, and folks are winnowed down over time. Some become helicopter pilots. It's a moving target.