National Defence Committee on April 15th, 2026

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 30 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on National Defence.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, September 16, 2025, the committee is meeting to study the situation of francophones and indigenous peoples in the Canadian Armed Forces.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. Members are attending in person and remotely using the Zoom application.

Before we begin, I ask participants to consult the guidelines on the table. These measures are to help prevent audio and feedback incidents and to protect the health and safety of the interpreters.

I would like to remind the witnesses and members to please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can. For interpretation, use the earpiece and select the appropriate channel. I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Welcome, everyone.

We have Lieutenant-General Erick Simoneau, chief of military personnel and commander of military personnel command; Major-General Martin Gros-Jean, defence team co-champion for official languages and deputy commander of military personnel command; and Anne Rahming, director of general culture and chief of professional conduct and culture.

We will proceed with Lieutenant-General Simoneau's opening statement. You have up to five minutes.

Thank you.

[Lieutenant-General Erick Simoneau, Chief of Military Personnel, Commander of Military Personnel Command, Canadian Armed Forces]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and honourable members of the committee, for the opportunity to appear before you today.

I am Lieutenant-General Erick Simoneau, and I am appearing before you as chief military personnel. I am accompanied by Major-General Martin Gros‑Jean, deputy commander of military personnel command and also the champion for official languages for the Canadian Armed Forces, as well as Ms. Anne Rahming from the chief professional conduct and culture group, at the Department of National Defence. She is also responsible for the department’s official languages policies. Together, we are responsible for the personnel management system and the policies that shape the recruitment, support and retention of Canadian Armed Forces members.

As a national institution, the Canadian Armed Forces must reflect the country it serves. Diversity—in linguistic, cultural, regional and experiential terms—is not an abstract value. It is a concrete operational requirement.

Our effectiveness depends on our ability to attract, integrate and retain talent from across Canadian society, including francophones, indigenous people, visible minorities, women and others whose perspectives and skills strengthen decision-making, legitimacy and public trust.

With respect to this study, I would say that francophone members are an integral part of the capacity of the Canadian Armed Forces and contribute positively to the advancement of a truly bilingual institution capable of communicating in both official languages. With respect to personnel, we are responsible for ensuring that the personnel management system allows francophone members to enlist, work and train in their first language and to advance in their careers under equitable conditions.

Retention of francophone members is closely linked to language of work over time. Access to training services, supervision and evaluation in French directly affects career progression, professional credibility and long-term engagement. Where gaps persist, particularly in training capacity and support services, their effects can accumulate and influence career outcomes.

A fundamental reality underpins this work: People are the mission.

Operational readiness and the sustainability of our forces depend on our ability to recruit and retain qualified and motivated members. Recruitment is only sustainable if the experience acquired is professional, credible and fair. Retention depends on the ability of members to envision a viable career without having to compromise their identity or language.

Today we are positioned to speak to both the indigenous and francophone dimensions of the committee's study and understand that a second appearance is being planned to allow members to pose additional questions to senior national defence officials.

I know these dynamics are central to the committee's study, and we welcome the opportunity to contribute to your work.

I look forward to your questions. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you, Mr. Simoneau.

I appreciate your comments, Lieutenant-General.

The first round is six minutes each. We'll start off with Mr. Kibble.

[Jeff Kibble, Conservative, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here today, and thank you for your service.

I'm glad to ask questions on this important topic. Where do I want to start? I would start with some basics, and we can focus on establishing some ratios. Is there a target ratio for francophones and anglophones in the Canadian Forces across the services?

[LGen Erick Simoneau]

There's no target ratio per se. I can answer this by saying that in the Canadian Armed Forces currently, 24% of our population is francophone. We can compare this to the ratio for Canada, which is 21%. I would say that we are overrepresented in the Canadian Armed Forces.

I would add, if you're interested, that at the entry level we are at 24%, but at the most senior level of the organization—the general officer and flag officer for example—we represent 35% of the population. It's the same for the chief warrant officer, at 34%. This speaks to the accessibility to progression within the forces for francophones.

[Jeff Kibble, Conservative, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you. I appreciate your efficiency, because you answered three of my questions in one. That's excellent.

If you could speak a bit more as to the.... You said the flag officer rate is at 35%. Why is it higher there?

[LGen Erick Simoneau]

I would coin it in a way that for francophones, in the early stage of our career—I'm a francophone, obviously—it's much more difficult to be trained and to access services, so we're forced to learn a second language very rapidly in our career.

For anglophones, the training and the accessibility are easier. At some point in time, to be promoted, they are forced to learn their second language because it requires what we call CBC on oral, written and understanding. It's more difficult for them, and it's later in their careers. We invest early in francophones by necessity.

[Jeff Kibble, Conservative, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you for that analysis. Maybe we could also speak to the rate of first nations in recruiting, in current strength and in flag rank.

[LGen Erick Simoneau]

Just for precision, are we talking about indigenous peoples?

[Jeff Kibble, Conservative, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Yes.

[LGen Erick Simoneau]

Currently, in the CAF, we're at 2.8%. This is the onboarding we've done this year. Enrolment is at 2.8%. We had a target of 3.5%, so this is an area I'm taking very seriously. However, I don't have many statistics on the GOFO—general officer and flag officer—cadre in terms of indigenous. We could return to you with statistics if we have any, but we all know each other. I'm not tracking any of them.

[Jeff Kibble, Conservative, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

That would be helpful. Thank you.

Quickly, both on the indigenous side and francophone numbers you gave, how does this relate historically, say, over the last 20 years? Is it on par, or are we improving ratios? What is the general trend?

[LGen Erick Simoneau]

I cannot answer for the last 20 years, but for the past 10 years—which I've prepared for—it's fairly stable. We've been orbiting at around 24% to 25%. We went low to 23%. It varies, but essentially, the average is 24% over time. For the indigenous, we're seeing an increase. We're still not meeting our targets, but we're seeing an increase because we have dedicated efforts that we're putting in place to increase our percentage there.

[Jeff Kibble, Conservative, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

We've seen a significant increase in permanent residents who are being recruited. Do we have a number or rate of members in CAF who can't speak either official language?

[LGen Erick Simoneau]

Mr. Chair, as part of our recruiting process, we need to ensure that people can operate in one of the two official languages. However, there are some difficulties with this to ensure that people can actually function in the full scope of one of the two official languages in Canada.

We are taking this very seriously because we value diversity. We value permanent residents and onboarding them as part of the forces. Therefore, we're putting in place language training in order to enable permanent residents to be fully integrated into the Canadian Armed Forces.

[Jeff Kibble, Conservative, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I appreciate that there's language training. For example, right now, I'm aware of one recruit in basic training who requires a phone to talk—to use for interpretation—in order to operate. I learned about another platoon that has five recruits who can barely speak English or French, or who can't speak them at all. It's causing challenges there.

Is the language training you mentioned before or after recruiting?

[LGen Erick Simoneau]

Mr. Chair, currently, I cannot speak about those five recruits, because I have no data on who they are.

However, we are observing difficulties in basic training at our schools in Borden and Saint-Jean. We are putting in place.... As soon as we realized that some recruits were enrolled without the full capacity of one of the two official languages, we moved them to either tools or training.

[Jeff Kibble, Conservative, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I would hope they get their language training or proficiency before getting to recruit school.

Are there any challenges you can share with us in recruiting and retaining both indigenous and francophone personnel in the Canadian Forces?

[LGen Erick Simoneau]

In terms of challenges, I will defer to the champion for official languages.

The realities are the same for indigenous and first nations peoples, in that there are some cultural aspects we need to be mindful of, especially with permanent residents we're putting in. We're standing up a cultural awareness package to enable our instructors to be more efficient with respect to the wide diversity we're onboarding. In terms of onboarding statistics, 33.7% of our intake this year was for visible minorities. This speaks to diversity.

More specifically on francophones, I will turn it over to the champion, if you will allow me, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Your time is up. It's a bit over, now.

We will be going to you, Mr. Watchorn. You have up to six minutes.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will allow Mr. Gros‑Jean to continue.

[Major-General Martin Gros-Jean, Defence Team Co-Champion for Official Languages, Deputy Commander of Military Personnel Command, Canadian Armed Forces]

Thank you, Mr. Watchorn.

Mr. Chair, it's my first time appearing before the committee, so I am a little nervous.

To answer the question on the retention of francophone members, as my boss, General Simoneau mentioned, I would say that francophones typically obtain their bilingual status or become bilingual very quickly over the course of their career. According to the statistics and surveys we possess, francophones are generally satisfied with their career in that respect.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

I will continue along the same lines and my question is for anyone who wants to respond.

Are the anglophone members of the Canadian Armed Forces strongly encouraged to learn a second language or do they not have time for that?

[Anne Rahming, Director General Culture, Chief Professional Conduct and Culture, Department of National Defence]

Our Official Languages Act modernization implementation plan addresses this very issue. We are currently rolling out a series of activities to promote bilingualism and even require higher-ranking members to be bilingual.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

The documents we received refer to operational cohesion. I would like to hear your thoughts on how this cohesion is implemented in practice. We are talking about cohesion between the two languages.

How can a commander ensure that the troops understand exactly what is expected? How can the commander ensure that the results obtained match the orders given?