Evidence of meeting #20 for Natural Resources in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was development.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gordon Peeling  President and Chief Executive Officer, Mining Association of Canada
Marylène Dussault  Environmental Analyst, Nature Québec/UQCN
Harvey Mead  President, Nature Québec / UQCN

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Welcome. We will begin.

Today we have witnesses from the Mining Association of Canada and Nature Québec. And at the end of the meeting we will also consider a notice of motion from Monsieur Ouellet.

I would like to introduce our witnesses, if they're ready. I see we have Gordon Peeling, president and chief executive officer from the Mining Association of Canada; Dr. Harvey Mead and Marylène Dussault are here from Nature Québec.

The pattern we've been using in this information exchange is to try to bring people up to date on matters involving the oil sands. So I'd ask the witnesses to give us an opening statement, and from that point I'll have you both speak before we get into questions, and then take questions from the committee at the conclusion of your presentation.

With that, Mr. Peeling, are you prepared to begin? Very good. Thank you.

3:35 p.m.

Gordon Peeling President and Chief Executive Officer, Mining Association of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It's my pleasure to be here to talk about sustainable development. I'm going to take you through who we are as the Mining Association of Canada, a theoretical framework for sustainability, and the practical application we are undertaking as an industry called “Towards Sustainable Mining”. I'll then focus specifically on the oil sands and then some conclusions. I hope that theoretical platform will help to shape the discussions today and help you position the public policy issues going forward.

Let me tell you a bit about the Mining Association of Canada. We're the national association of the mining industry, with 63 members and associate members. Our companies are engaged in exploration, mining, smelting, refining, and semi-fabrication, and we're suppliers of goods and services to the industry. We represent the “seniors” or producers of minerals and metals, including the Canadian oil sands producers who engage in mining in the front end of their process. As an industry, we are committed to sustainable development through our “Towards Sustainable Mining” initiative. We are also an award-winning association, having won the 2005 Globe award for environmental performance as an association.

Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure how much time you want me to take. I thought I'd go through some of the facts at the end of the process fairly quickly but spend a bit of time on the theoretics.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

I'm sorry I didn't discuss this with you and Dr. Mead to begin with. We've been going about half an hour combined, a little more than usual in this case, because we are trying to have you impart information to the committee and educate us as well, as we go through this piece.

3:35 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Mining Association of Canada

Gordon Peeling

Okay. Perfect. I'll try to judge that time accordingly.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

So you have fifteen minutes.

3:35 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Mining Association of Canada

Gordon Peeling

Okay. And I've used up some, a few minutes, already.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you for providing your deck in colour. We've had some problems with that. It's much easier for everybody when they are. So I appreciate your bringing that along.

3:35 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Mining Association of Canada

Gordon Peeling

I won't go over all of the details of the facts, but 4% of gross domestic product is a number we've accounted for over the last 35 years--between 3.5% and 4% of gross domestic product as an industry. We're very important to both the rail system and the port system in terms of overall loadings, freight revenue, etc., and there's quite an extended range of companies that supply services. For those 2,300 suppliers, we use a cut-off point. More than 50% of their business is done with the mining industry. So if you do 10% of your business with the mining industry, we could probably triple or quadruple that number in terms of the reach the mining industry has throughout the Canadian economy. And we're significant investors in research and development.

I will take a bit of time on the next slide, on the theoretical framework. I think it helps situate what we're trying to do as an industry and what I believe we're trying to also accomplish as a society. I've adapted this particular slide from the work of Herman Daly, a name well known in the environmental area and in natural capital, and some additional work by Veronica Alvarez Compillay, in work included in “Indicators of Sustainability for the Mineral Extractive Industries”. I've also drawn on some other authors as well and work at the World Bank.

To situate the traditional Herman Daly diagram of sustainability in terms of a theoretical framework is that pyramid you see in the centre of this diagram, how you move from natural capital, and you transform it with science and technology, economic policy, into produced capital, which would be what industry does in producing raw materials, work, etc. The financial side of that would go into and be reinvested by government in terms of its take into social and human capital, thereby, if it's all done properly, resulting in improved welfare in the Canadian economy and society in general.

That sort of beginning point has become more sophisticated and more detailed in terms of how economists and environmentalists theoretically look at this evolution. This is why I have given you the box with the arrows between natural capital, financial capital, human capital, and social capital, because that captures a bit more of the flavour of discussions over the last five years in terms of how this original sort of pyramid structure has broken down into more sophisticated compartments, although not losing sight of what that pyramid is trying to demonstrate in the centre.

I would even say that in the social capital, for instance, we now oftentimes break out into a subcomponent of institutional capital as well, or societal institutional capital, where if we reinvest properly with the capital that is derived from other parts of the system, we improve the institutional governance structures of society. That's part of public policy, but part of what we can also assist in.

I'll first of all explain a bit on the natural capital side. We're really talking about the flows in stocks of natural resources and natural services, water, flora, fauna, minerals, and metals. So that's what we put in the natural capital. That's not a static situation, because through the work of the sun we receive energy. It transforms into additional biota growth, etc. We're a bit more constrained in terms of how we look at the minerals and metal side of that issue, or fuels.

We transform natural capital into other forms of capital through the application of financial capital, economic policy, and social policy. Then we produce other forms of capital. We invest in that, and governments invest particularly in human capital through education, training, skills development, health, wealth, communication, knowledge. By the same token, we focus considerably, both as a society and on social capital as well, in terms of investing some of that financial wealth derived from other produced forms and natural forms of capital into social capital. I'll define that, and I'll use an OECD definition, which comes from a document called “Policies to Enhance Sustainable Development”, published in 2001.

The OECD's definition of social capital refers to the networks, shared norms, values, and understandings that facilitate cooperation amongst groups. It's social cohesion, commonality of purpose. Why I also break out and why a lot of the literature now talks about a subunit of that being institutional capital is that in some cases you need that institutional infrastructure to provide the platform for these social norms to work and coalesce and “cohese” more and improve. So there's a lot of subtlety to this.

If I were to really be totally complicating the sorts of debates that take place in the literature, we would also draw arrows going back and forth between natural capital and human capital, and social capital and financial capital as well, simply because with an increase in knowledge, we can work better to protect that natural capital. We can reclaim land and re-enhance natural capital. By the same token, through social capital and traditional knowledge on the first nations side, for example, that can be brought to bear to improve natural capital as well. So there is a very good reason that I show arrows going in both directions to all these boxes.

On the governance side and what government at both the provincial and federal levels and governments around the world do, and what we as industry do...we apply science and technology, economic policy, public policy, and so on, to ensure that we get the proper linkages and the optimum benefits out of the transformation of capital to these various boxes. This sort of diagram fits with where we were with the Earth Summit in 1992 and Agenda 21 on sustainable development. It fits with the Brundtland definition of bringing to bear a three-pronged approach of economic, social, and environmental foci to how we undertake economic and social development at the end of the day.

Although this is a complicated diagram--and I'll make just one other point about it--in looking at this, you have definitions of weak sustainability and strong sustainability. I don't want to dwell too much on those, but I'll put them on the record because I think you may end up with some appreciation for them at the end, because they are important.

On weak sustainability, the theoreticians would call that where your overall stock of capital, those forms of capital that I've laid out for you, remain in the development process at least constant over time. I'm using the definitions that are in a Eggert paper out of “Sustainable Development and the Future of Mineral Investment”, which is in actual fact a UNEP, or United Nations Environment Programme, publication. Just again, this is all well grounded in the literature.

Strong sustainability tends to focus on two elements, where it requires both the overall capital stock but also the natural resource stock to remain at least constant over time as well. So there is an argument within the literature that we need to pay particular attention to that natural capital stock.

So those are the theoretics. How do you go from that theoretical basis in terms of, for example, what we might do as an industry, the mining industry, which is dealing with a depletable resource...how do we operate in a sustainable manner or a manner that helps society achieve these goals of keeping this capital stock constant for growing so that we improve welfare at the end of the day?

That's really what this next part of my discussion is going to be about. I'm going to use the World Commission on Environment and Development--the Brundtland commission--definition of sustainable development, because that's at the heart of ours towards sustainable mining activity, where it's defined as “Development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs”. That fits perfectly with that other diagram, because that is a long-term dynamic, and you want to achieve growth in welfare, improvements in welfare over time, but not at irreparable cost to any particular capital component.

As a bit more about where we are, our activity was launched in 2004 after four years of intensive work internally to MAC, the Mining Association of Canada. It's a condition of membership in terms of a commitment by our members to this process in reporting in metrics that I'm going to tell you about. But in its design to align our industry actions with priorities and values of communities of interests and by aligning with priorities and values of the communities where we operate, that reflects social cohesion. That's a commitment to enhancing that social capital, and we want to improve our reputation through improved performance, which is all about reducing our draw on natural capital and improving the financial capital side and the ability of governments and others to invest in human capital at the end of the day.

Our guiding principles are: to responsibly meet society's needs for minerals and metals; to be committed to sustainable development; to align our actions; to hold shared values; to offer ongoing protection of employees, communities, customers, and the natural environment.

I have brought the TSM report with me in English and French and have made it available at the back of the room, so I'm not going to go into detail on a lot of these. Just read through these; they're there for you.

We are committed in all aspects of our operations to respect human rights, to respect cultures, customs, and values, to adhere to best practices, to be responsive to community priorities, etc.

In this practical application, we have developed performance indicators, because part of the sustainable development equation at the end of the day is based on how you measure progress. How do you operationalize the guiding principles into metrics on the ground, so that you can demonstrate whether you're making progress or not?

That's exactly what the MAC TSM guiding principles and MAC activity are all about: developing performance indicators to respond to critical areas of performance that civil society has asked that we improve on. Our board has decided that it wants and needs measurable results, it wants to be accountable for its actions, and it needs to report on that progress and results, and by reporting, be accountable to the public.

It also will build credibility and trust with our community of interest, not on the basis of, “Believe us, we're here to do our best”, but in actual fact, to demonstrate through reporting on the important metrics that we are living up to our commitments.

The indicators in the first instance, because again this comes from the feedback of what our communities of interest.... You might use the term “stakeholders”, but first nations and our Inuit and Métis members prefer “communities of interest” rather than “stakeholders”. They see themselves as more than stakeholders and as governments, in many instances, in their own right, so I will use the longer form, “communities of interest”.

Clearly, one of the first things they wanted us to improve was the crisis management in communications around our activities, our external outreach and engagement with the local communities where we operate, and they wanted us to reflect those values and engage in much better response mechanisms and capture benefits at the local level.

Greenhouse gases and energy use is a major issue, and we have focused on that for quite a number of years.

Because of events in the nineties with respect to tailings failures outside of Canada, we were asked to focus on developing best practice and world-class guidance in the management of tailings facilities to ensure that those types of environmental problems did not repeat themselves. We have developed a due diligence approach in tailings management that is now a world-class document that is on the UNEP world website. We've made it available to the rest of the industry worldwide. It's best practice guidance.

This is quite an elaborate architecture that we have built in going from guiding principles to interpreting those principles and defining performance indicators. We are working on those two additional boxes, aboriginal relations and biodiversity. We have developed workshops and policy positions with our communities of interest over this year, and we will be developing the metrics next year.

Behind those metrics go reporting guides and performance reporting systems, and we will be moving to third-party verification in 2007. Again, it's going to be quite a sophisticated process, and it won't stop there. We're still in the process of building this architecture. But I give you an example here of the TSM public report—and as I say, both English and French copies are available—and we will be moving to external verification next year on our reporting.

Turning to its practical application, what it has done for us in general as an industry is drive performance, refocus and stimulate activity in the industry on performance gaps, draw attention to our goals and targets, and create a culture of achievement. This is all the business case for doing this. It identifies trends and allows us to compare ourselves with others, both worldwide and in other parts of the economy. It creates a culture of transparency in our activities and actions, and it helps to earn our social licence at the end of the day.

Let me turn to the oil sands side of that and the members of the Mining Association of Canada--and I can only speak for them here--Syncrude, Suncor, Shell Albian. They have been leaders in implementation towards sustainable mining. In many instances--not right across the board, but in many instances--they already had best practice world-class standards in energy and tailings management, external outreach, aboriginal relations, and crisis communications, and we have used their best practices to drive performance in other parts of the industry.

I won't spend a lot of time going over these facts about the oil sands industry and the position that Canada is in. You're going to have more knowledgeable people from Alberta and the oil sands and the petroleum sector I think in your subsequent meetings, who can talk in much more detail about this.

The level of revenues that we are potentially going to derive as an economy and as governments over the period of 20 to 25 years is quite staggering. The employment benefits and the benefits in terms of procurement policies right across the country are important. Even within aboriginal businesses, in 2005, the industry spent more than $310 million in contracts to source goods and services. There is a culture of achievement and entrepreneurial development in Alberta in the aboriginal community that I think is the envy of many other aboriginal communities across Canada. We're seeing the same thing take place in the diamond industry in northern Canada. We hope to see that replicated in the diamond industry in Ontario and in the mining industry in general. We are taking best practices from what the oil sands are doing, in terms of their community outreach and aboriginal engagement, and trying to duplicate that elsewhere.

The job creation is quite spectacular. I'll just draw some links back to the TSM performance indicators: aboriginal engagement with the oil sands, the work with the Athabasca Tribal Council, 1,500 aboriginal employees in permanent jobs in 2005. I mentioned the contract.

In the performance indicators we have under TSM, the oil sands are the top performers in external outreach and aboriginal relations. Syncrude is a recipient of the Progressive Aboriginal Relations Award from the Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business. They are doing their best, as we are, collectively, as an industry, by investing in aboriginal business development and human skills development and training. That's the human capital component of this. Allowing those communities to become self-sufficient in terms of their own economic future is building social capital. And again, it's the way it draws back to those linkages. The moneys that will flow to government on the financial side put government in a position to invest in human capital and social capital, at the end of the day, in a broader sense than just a regional sense.

On environmental stewardship--again, air, water, land--they are doing quite significant work in terms of both tailings management and biodiversity. These are all regulated areas at both the provincial and federal levels in terms of air, water, and land. In the case of water, Suncor has doubled production over the last five years, but their water usage has remained the same. We've become much more efficient in water usage, and clearly, that's one of the key goals we collectively have as an industry. It's also acute for this part of Alberta. Again, they are very strong performers under the TSM with respect to those elements.

On responsible energy use and energy management, they are leaders, and many of our mining companies have been out to Alberta to look at the energy efficient processes they have in place. In many cases, they have led the way. There are still some big challenges, which I'll get to in my concluding remarks. They continue to push the envelope in sulphur capture, nitrogen oxide and particulate reduction, and greenhouse gas efficiencies and reductions.

I'll conclude my remarks. I've taken you through the practical side, but I wanted to really fit this within a theoretical context as well.

Quite frankly, in terms of the challenge we have as Canadians in looking at where we need to go next with development in Canada, the solution isn't in ensuring the oil sands, mining, or harvesting of any natural resource.... If we're going to make those part of the sustainability equation, the solution is not rendering these resources valueless by stopping development. It's ensuring that we have good public policy in place to optimize the human, social, and financial capital components while minimizing the environmental cost and the draw on natural capital. For the oil sands, that means in a general sense that we need to focus on public–private research, with added emphasis on greenhouse gas capture and sequestration—particularly the CO2 component of that—and continued pursuit of energy efficiencies in production processes.

I'll end with a final comment that is a quote from Fred Carmichael, president of the Gwich'in Tribal Council and chair of the Aboriginal Pipeline Group, in a speech on October 24 of this year to the Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business. He stated, “I believe the Creator put the resources under and on the land so that our people can continue to make a decent living.” That comes back to the welfare and economic possibilities that these resources represent, but we have to do it in a responsible manner.

As an industry, we are committed to getting there. We're not at an end state of grace by any means. We have lots of elements to continue to work on, but you have a commitment from this industry to continue to improve, to continue to see those best practices evolve, and to work with government on some of the step change process realities that we need at the end of the day.

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you, Mr. Peeling.

I think we will continue on with the witnesses and then go to questioning generally.

I'll now introduce Dr. Harvey Mead and Marylène Dussault. Dr. Mead is the president of Nature Québec. As many of us will recall, he was the chairman of the National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy. I understand Madame Dussault is a researcher as well, and she has done some work on the oil sands.

3:55 p.m.

Marylène Dussault Environmental Analyst, Nature Québec/UQCN

I spent the last couple of months working on the tar sands. I did literature review and I worked on the first phases of a life cycle assessment on this subject.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Great.

With that, I'll ask Dr. Mead to begin.

3:55 p.m.

Dr. Harvey Mead President, Nature Québec / UQCN

We did not have a PowerPoint presentation, so I hope you received the notes. Talking about the oil sands and sustainable development at the same time seemed like quite a challenge.

We changed our name last year. Nature Québec is therefore a transition. The UQCN was founded in 1981. Within the first two years, it adopted the World Conservation Strategy of the World Conservation Union, also known as the IUCN. It was at that time that sustainable development was mentioned for the first time in an international document. We have been working in this area for the past 23 years. Sustainable development is included in our charter and our primary activities. We work in the agriculture, forestry, and energy sectors.

I occasionally give lectures to the Quebec Mining Association. We work with that organization on a regular basis. Our contact with the Mining Association of Canada is much less frequent.

After listening to Mr. Peeling, I would say that, in our view, the approach taken by the Mining Association of Canada constitutes an excellent example of environmental management, as opposed to managing for sustainable development. This is also somewhat true in the case of the Canadian Chemical Producers Association, for which I serve as an auditor. This is still not a question of sustainable development. Rather, it is a matter of sound environmental management. I use the term “environmental” here in a very broad sense.

My notes on sustainable development are rather brief. I stopped developing the subject approximately ten years ago, after the publication of a book that gives 211 definitions of sustainable development. I do not wish to appear critical, but Mr. Peeling's document had a certain effect on me. Personally, I feel that environmental management is what must really be respected. It is often the forerunner.

Marylène Dussault and I prepared the notes. We will gladly answer your questions following my presentation. The French term for sustainable development is in dispute. The translation used by the Brundtland Commission, of which we were a partner and responsible member, is “développement soutenable” (as opposed to “développement durable”). That decision was made in Switzerland. We therefore have a new term. In English, the term is sustainable development. In any case, the French term “développement durable", which has been in use for approximately 25 years, is really the term that should be used. The question is rather simple. Are our actions sustainable or not?

I would now like to move on to the second point. The basic principle is that mining, in general, is not sustainable. This is not a criticism, merely an observation. The resource will eventually be depleted. The industry often responds by developing technologies aimed at exploiting increasingly smaller deposits to extract more of the resource. I believe the problem concerning the oil sands, especially oil in the broader sense, as well as coal, is that, since we have already been using these resources for several hundred years, we cannot consider the possibility that they will not last forever.

A rather popular principle is that we should exploit a non-renewable resource only at the same rate as we are developing the resource that will replace it. This could mean another non-renewable resource, but recently, this more often means renewable energies.

Four years ago, Ralph Torrie wrote a paper for the Suzuki Foundation and Climate Action Network Canada on how to manage greenhouse gas emissions. He proposed a plan to reduce emissions by 50% by 2030. According to Mr. Torrie, between 1970 and 2000, we produced more energy through energy savings and energy efficiency than by new energy production.

At that time, during the same 30 years, savings totaled $50 billion. Thus, we could say that it would be easy, in terms of replacement resources, to turn to energy efficiency.

With respect to the 50% reduction in emissions, Mr. Torrie did not take into account our exports. I called him to confirm. He did not know what to do about the oil sands. Yet, that week, in fact the same day that I was contacted, the Pembina Institute published a report entitled Carbon Neutral by 2020. It tackles explicitly and specifically the question of how to manage the oil sands.

The approach recommends either carbon sequestration or the purchase of carbon credits. We will come back to this matter and discuss it further. What is interesting about the oil sands compared to oil in the Middle East or elsewhere is that the input-output performance, in other words, what is produced compared to what is needed to produce it, is getting worse. In the case of oil, approximately ten barrels are produced for one barrel of energy input. It is difficult to obtain data concerning the oil sands. I asked two or three people on our energy board and they indicated it would be two or three barrels.

Carbon sequestration will further reduce the performance of the oil sands in terms of energy. This is not grounds to put an end to their development. It is a question of recognizing what I call an indicator. The fact that the production of two barrels of oil requires one barrel of input indicates that the days of oil production are numbered. This is what some people claim. I have here a few references in this regard.

It is therefore in our best interest to reduce our oil dependency. At present, American and Canadian society, and that of other developed countries, are completely dependent, whether for transportation, industrial processes or other uses. We are in a situation of increasing scarcity. The price of a barrel is currently $70. I predict that it will increase to $100 or even $150 in the near future. The fact remains that the industry is doing rather well at present.

Our first suggestion involves doing away with the tax incentives introduced by the Chrétien government in 1995-96. They totalled $8 billion over 20 years. This industry is doing very well. It must deal with all sorts of restrictions, but the fact remains that it is at the end of its reign. It does not need any incentives. The renewable energies sector, however, does need incentives. Thus, we are proposing that those incentives should be transferred to renewable energies, which would not generate any additional budget costs. Furthermore, we are becoming increasingly aware of the impact of exploiting the oil sands. The same is true for the industry, as indicated by Mr. Peeling. There is the problem of water, which is just as significant as the emissions problem. There is also the problem of the loss of areas of boreal forest.

It is fair to say that planning was completed without considering all of these consequences, although they were more or less known. It is unfortunate. This is precisely the problem. The life cycle, which Marylène discussed earlier, gives us the opportunity to determine the consequences and measures that should be taken to improve the situation or at least avoid making things any worse. In order to do so, the principles of the Canadian association should be followed to some degree.

We are also proposing that external costs be considered during the planning, and not after the fact. In our view, the only way to do this would be to resort to the polluter-payer principle, although I detest the term. “Consumer-payer” would be the more accurate term, given that the price is integrated, regardless. The cost of the consequences should be integrated into the price. The only real way to achieve this would be to create a market. The current government does not want to create a market. The previous government talked about it.

We are proposing that the company or the industry be given the opportunity to purchase credits when the technology used does not produce the required reductions. Such an approach would be useful in that a consumer who selects one product over another would have to pay the price. The cost would be integrated. I will come back to this in a moment and give further details on the matter.

The third problem is that we are not yet ready in terms of replacement energy. A banker who manages tens of billions of dollars in energy investments has just released a book. He asserts that Saudi Arabia does not have the reserves that it claims to have. We must prepare ourselves for a post-oil future. This will happen within the next 20 to 40 years, which may not be tomorrow, but the crisis will be upon us more quickly. The cost of oil will rise and we will not have any replacement energy. The notion of transferring incentives to renewable energy sources, which I mentioned earlier, would help to find substitutes for nonrenewable resources and promote such substitutes.

Point no. 6 of my notes responds to the concern expressed by Mr. Peeling. It is regrettable that the debate is focusing on whether or not we adhere to the Kyoto protocol or on proposals aimed at slowing or stopping the development of the oil sands. We, on the other hand, try to be much more realistic and realize that no one is going to stop it. You met with representatives from the National Energy Board last week. The figure discussed was $94 billion. During the round table, that figure was $70 billion. Barely two weeks ago, the figure was put at $150 billion by 2020. In the case of the National Energy Board, the $94 billion targeted for investments by 2015 could be rounded off to $100 billion. That is the problem with politicians, whether Liberal or Conservative. No one is going to put a stop to that. We are not here to suggest that this is what should be done. We are proposing, rather, that the oil sands be placed in a market context, which does not yet exist. At least, an emissions credit trading market does not yet exist and there are subsidies that allow the industry to avoid planning its own development.

In the Pembina report and other such reports—and Mr. Peeling touched very briefly on this—sequestration is discussed. This concerns a range of technology that has yet to be developed and tested, but that will be needed to store the carbon directly in underground reservoirs, hoping that it will stay there for a few thousand years without escaping. This is an enormous challenge and businesses are working together on it. This is discussed at the end of Mr. Peeling's document. In any case, we are not proposing that the government subsidize this research. We are proposing, rather, that restrictions be placed on the industry in order to bring everything together, to ensure that research is conducted on technology and other aspects of the production.

The Pembina report also mentions the purchase of credits. Yet, we do not even have a market. I took part in the round table with Bob Page, vice-president of TransAlta, and who also represents several companies. He appeared on television not even two weeks ago. We regularly hear that industrialists would like the medium-term perspectives to be made clearer for investment purposes. When planning the installation of piping for future oil sands development, these people do not even know whether to head towards the Pacific or the United States.

I have already mentioned Peak Oil. I find it interesting that you have put the oil sands and sustainable development together. There is no need to discuss the Kyoto protocol. That is a rather different debate, except that it underscores the problem of greenhouse gases. Matthew R. Simmons, an American banker who has been managing tens of billions of dollars worth of investments for the past 30 or 40 years and who has his own Web site, stated several years ago that he was unaware of the scope of the risk involved in his investments. For the past 20 years, OPEC has no longer been publishing the state of its reserves, its sources of supply, and so on. It is a global unknown.

Mr. Simmons knew that petroleum engineers were meeting regularly and publishing technical reports. He analyzed 225 of those reports, especially those dealing with the Middle East, and wrote a book called Twilight in the Desert: The Coming Saudi Oil Shock and the World Economy.

The author is a banker, not an ecologist. He believes that Saudi Arabia does not have the reserves it claims to have and that it is unlikely new reserves will be discovered. Even oil is much less abundant than Saudi Arabia claims. Mr. Simmons concludes that even if we have not yet hit peak oil yet, it will not be long before we do. It does not matter whether we reached it last year or this year, or whether we will reach it in five years. The decline of supply has begun and demand is increasing. We have to be better prepared than we are.

Oil sands extraction is three times less efficient than traditional oil extraction. That is what is going on in Alberta right now. It is a huge challenge, but will probably be a profitable one, especially if the price per barrel continues to climb.

How can we prepare ourselves to deal with this impending scenario in which oil becomes so expensive we have to make major adjustments to the world economy? Like you, I did not have time to read Mr. Stern's report. He is not an ecologist either. He is the former chief economist of the World Bank. He says that that is where we are right now and that the risks are enormous.

Rather than talk about sustainable development, I chose to begin from the assumption that oil is not renewable and then figure out how to deal with that scenario. The oil sands might last 20, 30 or 40 years, but we are already facing scarcity.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you. I'm sure that will stimulate some questions.

We'll begin the first round of questioning. We'll try to keep it to seven minutes, and we'll watch carefully how closely Mr. Cullen reaches that target.

Mr. Cullen.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Mead, Ms. Dussault and Mr. Peeling, thank you very much for your presentations. I hope I will have enough time to ask Mr. Peeling a question, but I would like to begin with a question for Mr. Mead.

In paragraph 4 of your presentation, “Overview of the current situation”, you said, among other things, the following:

Almost entirely for export

Environmental and economic impact here

and impact on society.

4:15 p.m.

President, Nature Québec / UQCN

Dr. Harvey Mead

And on the environment.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Yes.

Last week, witnesses said that oil sands production was necessary for domestic consumption, which surprised me. Can you explain this? An American company, Conoco, is considering a strategic partnership with EnCana to buy the total oil sands output for its refineries.

4:15 p.m.

President, Nature Québec / UQCN

Dr. Harvey Mead

Conoco in the United States or in Canada?

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

In the United States. This suggests that oil sands production is not really for domestic consumption. Can you comment on that?

4:15 p.m.

President, Nature Québec / UQCN

Dr. Harvey Mead

I would be happy to.

I participated in a National Energy Board day of consultation that took place in May or June in Montreal. Other such days were organized in other regions of the country. The purpose of the consultation was to present the preliminary scenario in the report to be published in 2007.

Every five years, I think, the Board presents a broader outlook than what it presented during the day of consultation this year, because we only heard about the economic part. Many of those in attendance, including representatives of Quebec's ministries of natural resources and wildlife, were surprised. The Board suggested three scenarios, none of which raised any questions about the issues I was just talking about. We can only conclude that the National Energy Board is not concerned about the possibility that we could be facing a rather perilous and risky situation.

The Board said that Mr. Simmons might be mistaken, but that they had to develop a scenario based on the possibility of relative scarcity anyway. I have received only the summary of the report, which puts a lot of emphasis on steadily increasing demand. According to the Pembina Institute and Ralph Torrie reports that I quoted earlier, we can cut our emissions in half by 2030 or within 15 years, respectively.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Peeling, I'd like to talk a bit about your sustainable development model. It's a fascinating proposition, but I'd like to zero in on the oil sands. The first question is, how do the oil sands and mining intersect? I see the big companies are members of the mining association. What part do you see as mining and what part is an oil and gas project?

4:20 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Mining Association of Canada

Gordon Peeling

The front end of the business for the three members we have--Shell, Suncor, and Syncrude--is mining. It's truck and shovel. It's the mining of the bitumen. The back end of the business is the separation and the crackers, the production of sweet crude, etc., and then it's into the petroleum business, and downstream, in Suncor, all the way through to gas stations, etc.

Part interest in our connection is with the mining component of the business and the best practices at that end in terms of energy efficient removal of materials, reclamation of landscapes, energy efficiency in that process, etc.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Peeling, maybe you could shed some light on this issue around...there have been a lot of people, and I've been one of them, pointing out that there are some environmental issues around the oil sands, one of them being water. Most people agree with that, the way water is used. One of the things I find confusing--and we're having more information submitted by Natural Resources Canada--is that we hear that 90% of the water is recycled. I'm getting a closer understanding of that, that some of it, maybe 80%, goes into the tailings pond.

Maybe you could comment on how, or if ever, that water gets recycled, because we have conflicting stories about the water table in the Athabasca under pressure, going down, farmers complaining, etc., and that doesn't square with the notion that we have 90% of the water being recycled. Maybe you could elaborate on that.

4:20 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Mining Association of Canada

Gordon Peeling

I can only speak to three of those companies, and they're not the only operators within the oil sands, nor are they engaged in that portion of the industry to the south of their lease areas, which are in steam injection processes of removal, without excavation for the deeper deposits. But you have challenges, in that with the additional expansions and new investors in the area, they will have an initial draw from the Athabasca, while at the same time you have expansion and traditional users who are continually pushing the envelope toward a lower draw. When they put water both in the settling ponds and in the tailings area, it's to allow the fine silt to settle, and it takes time for it to settle out of the process. To the extent that there is an immiscible component of petroleum in the water, it takes time for that to settle. All those companies are investing at their research centres in Edmonton on improving those processes to increase the runaround and to reduce the draw on the Athabasca.

But there is a dynamic going on there, where some companies are ahead of others in their process, in that 90% recycle. In some parts of the mining industry, for example, at Raglan in northern Quebec, there's a different style of mining; it's 100% recycle. And that's the goal we're shooting for collectively as an industry--100% recycle. There's a very minimal draw in the first instance, but then we just keep recycling that water through our process, and ultimately, when it does get released back into the environment, it's released to the metal mining effluent regulation standards, or it is released to water quality standards, whichever is the better standard.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

So then part of the issue is the one-time draw. It's a timing thing, on new entrants in particular, but also the timing of the water being available to go back into the system--

4:20 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Mining Association of Canada

Gordon Peeling

Yes, there is a significant delay.