Evidence of meeting #22 for Natural Resources in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was know.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

We'll now begin.

I'm very pleased to welcome today the Minister of Natural Resources, the Honourable Gary Lunn; his deputy, Ms. Cassie Doyle; and Richard Tobin, from the department.

Before we begin, I want to run over the schedule for today. I think the committee would like to hear opening remarks from the minister. Following his remarks, I think we will revert to questions, any questions the committee would like to ask, either on the remarks the minister is about to give on his estimates or on virtually anything within the department. I'm not going to hold you back from asking pretty much anything you want to ask.

I would suggest to the committee that we wrap up the session of questions by about 5 o'clock at the latest, if the minister could stay that long. We would then go through the estimates, not so much line by line, but there are half a dozen votes that we might take among the committee, if it's acceptable to the committee.

Very well. Without further ado, let me introduce the Honourable Gary Lunn.

3:35 p.m.

Saanich—Gulf Islands B.C.

Conservative

Gary Lunn ConservativeMinister of Natural Resources

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. It's my pleasure to be back before the committee. I think the last time I was here was in June, and I'm very pleased to be here to appear before the committee.

You mentioned Cassie Doyle, the Deputy Minister of Natural Resources Canada. She's been with us for four months now and she's been doing a great job. We've also got Dr. Richard Tobin, who is the assistant deputy minister of the corporate management sector.

With your blessing, I'll try to keep my remarks short, Mr. Chair. I'll touch briefly on a number of issues. I don't need the translation here myself--only if I speak French; then I need the translation to know what I'm saying. I'm going to talk about the Clean Air Act. I'm going to talk about energy efficiency and renewable energy. I'll briefly touch on renewable fuels. I want to briefly mention regulatory reform, science and technology, and forestry. I will conclude with a few comments on income trusts.

I'm looking forward to your questions, so I'll go through these areas briefly. Let me begin with the Clean Air Act, Mr. Chair.

Our government has, as you know, tabled the Clean Air Act, and I want to emphasize that this is a new approach. This is the first time in Canadian history that any federal government has ever undertaken to regulate every single sector, from oil and gas to mining to forestry to the auto sector, on both pollutants and greenhouse gases. We believe this is a new approach. We think it's bold. We think it will have meaningful reductions in both the short and long term, and that's why we've taken this approach. I think it's important that we emphasize this.

I know there has been some discussion about the targets. I know there has been some criticism about the targets, about the fact there was a long-term target. I would like to bring to everyone's attention that in the notice of intent, there are also specific discussions on short-term and long-term targets, and that is worth emphasizing.

Of course we're all aware of the previous government's record. They set a target of 6%. The Commissioner of the Environment was somewhat critical of that because there was no plan attached, and in the 13 years they were in power, greenhouse gas emissions rose by 35% above that target.

But it's time to look forward, not backwards. Canadians want to know what we are going to do, so I want to stress to the committee that our government is consulting with every one of the sectors that I just mentioned. We genuinely believe they have to be part of the solution if this is going to work. We are going to consult with all of them. Consultations are going on now; in fact in one of the sectors, the electricity sector, there's another consultation tonight that I'm involved with after this meeting.

We have to consult with them. They have to be part of the solution. At the end of the day we have to come up with tough short- and medium-term targets, but they have to be realistic, they have to be achievable, and they have to be enforced. That is exactly what we're doing.

I just wanted to stress where we're going on the Clean Air Act. We think it's the right approach for this country. It's something we've never seen before.

There are other ways we are going to tackle the challenges facing our country, Mr. Chair. We all know the amount of energy we use as a country, the effect it is having on our environment, and the effect it is having on greenhouse gas emissions. I've said many times that one of the largest sources of untapped energy in this country is the energy we waste.

We are doing a number of things. In the industrial sector, we now have programs within our department through which we work with these companies and show them ways they can save. In some cases, a one-day workshop has resulted in up to $250,000 in immediate energy savings for some of these companies, so there is some very good work going on.

We've introduced, as part of the Clean Air Act, changes to the Energy Efficiency Act. A number of household items...will be strengthened in the regulations. Some will be brand new; we will regulate them for the first time. There are very inefficient items; we will be able to create significant efficiencies in this area.

Another area the department is looking at, Mr. Chair, is labelling. A lot of us have bought appliances such as refrigerators. We see the energy efficiency rating on these appliances, but quite often when you talk to people, the numbers don't mean a lot. They don't pay attention to them. We're looking at making some changes in this area. We could actually make it very consumer friendly, so people could see immediately, for example, that this appliance would provide $100 in energy savings annually over that appliance.

These are some of the areas we're looking at, but at the end of the day technology is really where we're going to win this battle. There are a number of technologies that are coming on stream, from very small items to very large items. We're very bullish on some of these technologies.

Let me share a few stories with you that you may not have heard. Group IV Semiconductor, a small company here in Ottawa in which we have invested a few million dollars, has taken solid state, not LED, and developed a way to turn it into lighting. The type of lighting they have developed is 95% light and 5% heat. The lights in this room right above us are 95% heat and 5% light. So what we're investing in this small company here in Ottawa will help them bring this to the marketplace and take it to the next stage of commercialization. This small company could actually revolutionize the way we light up North America. Right now, 5% of our total energy electricity consumption in North America is on lighting. So imagine if we could get our lighting to 95% efficiency instead of 5%. It doesn't take much to do the math.

I'm not sure if I've talked about the one-watt challenge. Many of the appliances in our homes, when put in standby mode, take 30 to 40 watts of power. There are technologies available today that can reduce that standby power to one watt. This is an area we're looking at.

So those are just a few items. We'll be very supportive of energy efficiency right across the board, from the consumers to the big companies, if there are ways we can help them. We believe it's in everyone's interest.

Let me now shift my focus to renewable energy. I'm very pleased to say that we are making significant progress. We're seeing wind energy increase at a very good rate in every corner of the country. We think this is very positive. There are lots of examples. I know that Nexen and GW Power Corp. have a 70.5-megawatt power project, and they will begin producing electricity in September. This will provide enough electricity, just from wind, for 25,000 homes. But more importantly, this project's offsets will be 95,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide gases a year, and this is from just one wind farm.

From my conversations with many in the industry, they are approaching the point where they're commercially competitive on their own. So we think there are very exciting opportunities with wind.

As to solar, in August of this year our government supported the Horse Palace at Exhibition Place in Toronto. This is Canada's single largest solar installation. It will generate roughly 120,000 kilowatt hours of electricity, which is enough to power up to 35 homes. Again, it will reduce 115 tonnes of carbon dioxide annually. The really exciting thing about Exhibition Place is that you can go on their website and engage Canadians. You can see in real time how much energy is being created, and at the very same time see the offsets in greenhouse gases.

It's true that solar technology is expensive compared to the other forms of energy, but it's making enormous strides. We have plants right across Canada that are doing things. They're creating solar systems to light up airfields. I know the Kandahar airfield is lit by solar technology from right here in Canada.

I can see a day 15 or 20 years from now when we'll be putting solar systems in new homes, just as we put in heating systems today. I think there are exciting opportunities for solar in the years ahead.

Tidal is another form of renewable energy. I don't know if any members of the committee are aware that the Government of Canada is supporting a project where we actually lowered the first tidal turbine in North America and anchored it to the ocean floor right off the coast of Victoria. That was done last month. This tidal turbine at the Race Rocks research facility will allow them to completely remove the diesel generator in that facility. But more importantly, the people doing this project believe there is a great opportunity to do this on a larger scale.

There is an enormous amount of energy in the ocean, and if we can begin to harness that energy.... Again, these are just other examples of renewable energy. Our government is very keen on this. We'll continue to support it.

Biomass is another area of emerging technology within the renewable sector. So there is a lot of excitement within the renewal energy field.

Let me just briefly touch on the renewable fuels. I know in the past you've heard us say that we're setting a mandate of a 5% ethanol content in fuel right across Canada by 2010. We also believe there is an opportunity to be looking at biodiesel. Again, this will take the equivalent of hundreds of thousands of cars off the road--and their emissions. These are tangible things that the Government of Canada is doing right now that will have a significant impact on the environment.

I should briefly mention, on regulatory reform, that this is an area that I think we need to look at. I've discussed it with my colleagues. It's on the drawing board. Right now, it's taking a long time to get a lot of projects approved through the regulatory approval process in a number of disciplines. I'm working with my colleagues at looking at how we can streamline this regulatory approval process. How can we put in defined timelines? We believe that by doing this you'll get a stronger result at the end of the day. By having a focused regulatory approval process that's very comprehensive, very complete, and by working with the provinces to eliminate overlap, we'll get far better results at the end of the day than by having a more patchwork approach.

There are some exciting things that are happening now. There have been pilot projects between various departments in the federal government, with some very positive results. We still believe there are opportunities to do even more, and that's an area on the radar screen.

Let me touch on science and technology. I said earlier that science and technology will be key. As many people on the committee know, we have a CO2 sequestration facility at Weyburn, Saskatchewan, which our government supports. This technology is evolving at such a pace that we will have the ability to capture the majority of CO2 gases from large final emitters. In the years to come, this technology, we believe, will be key to helping reduce some of these CO2 gases. So this is something we want to invest in, in our research, to ensure that these type of projects go forward.

For example, clean coal technology is another area that has fascinating promise. Right now, they're looking at projects that can eliminate up to 60% of the emissions out of coal-fired generation facilities with the latest technology. Can you imagine if we can develop this technology here in Canada and can deploy it to places like India and China, where they use massive amounts of coal for their energy? If we can do that, we'll do more for the global environment than anybody could possibly imagine. That's why it's critical that we invest in these types of technologies and that we develop them right here in Canada. The benefits would be immeasurable.

On forestry, as everybody on the committee is aware, we've made a commitment of $200 million to combat the pine beetle. I'm happy to update the committee that we're working very closely with the Province of British Columbia on looking at proposals. One thing that the department officials in both governments have agreed on is that we'll work together so that there isn't overlap and we're on one stream on how best to mitigate the infestation, on how we look at economic diversification. These are things we're looking at within the forestry. We also recognize that it is crossing over into Alberta. It is a priority for us to put in the dollars that are required to try to control that spread. That's something that we believe is very important.

We're also investing heavily on the restructuring of the forest industry. Obviously, with the softwood lumber issue behind us with the United States, and the cheques starting to flow now and return to the industry, we think there are some opportunities for the forest sector. We want to be there to support them as they move forward.

Last, Mr. Chair, I think I'd be remiss if I didn't address the issue of income trusts. As you know, this was announced by the Minister of Finance on October 31. It has had an impact on the energy sector, but it's very important that we be straight upfront and forward with this.

We knew BCE and Telus were planning on restructuring their affairs as income trusts, which would have allowed them to avoid paying any corporate taxes at all. That was their sole reason. We also had information that led us to believe that there was such a potential in the financial sector and the energy sector as well, and it really put the government in an untenable situation. So we made a very difficult decision. We decided that it had to be done. There was no other option.

To offset those changes, Mr. Chair, we provided a four-year transition period for those existing income trusts, as you know. We also put forward a proposal to allow pension income splitting and also to raise the age exemption for taxation. These are a few areas in which we want to try to protect the individuals.

Clearly, we were not going to be in a position where we were going to allow the transfer of taxation from corporations to individuals. This was an issue of tax fairness between corporations and individuals. Clearly, we had no other choice but to act, and that is exactly what we did and why we did it.

With that, Mr. Chair, I would welcome questions from the committee members on any matter related to Natural Resources Canada, and I look forward to your questions.

Thank you very much.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

I would also like to thank you for the provision of additional material that has been provided to the committee. I'm going to ask the clerk to distribute that. This would be the material in response to requests by the committee. In Assistant Deputy Minister Howard Brown's recent appearance before the committee, he committed to a number of the members for specific detailed information. You have provided that today, Minister, so it is being distributed to committee members now. Thank you for that.

With that, we'll proceed with questions.

Just before we do, we are now going to revert to a format more formal than what has been occurring in the last few weeks. We have been having informal witnesses to educate the committee on the oil sands. However, we passed a motion earlier in the session to stick to strict time limits for the questions, so that everybody gets an opportunity to ask a question. We haven't had that happen in the last few weeks because we have allowed the questions to go too long.

I'm going to have to be pretty strict about limiting questions to five minutes each. That way, I think everybody will be able to get a chance to ask a question, should they so desire.

With that, I'd like Mr. Cullen to begin.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

And thank you, Minister and Ms. Doyle and Mr. Tobin.

Normally, Minister, I'd find your comments sort of infectiously enthusiastic, but I must say, when I go through your estimates, my enthusiasm is dampened somewhat. I want to come back to that in a moment.

If you measure success as allowing the oil sands to grow the way they would like to without any constraints because the CO2 emissions are going to be controlled on an intensity basis, then I suppose if that's your measure of success, the Clean Air Act does that. But I'm not sure that would be my measure of success.

Just to touch on the income trusts briefly, it's been reported that this is going to cause some consolidation in the industry, and then some Canadian companies could be the targets of takeovers. I don't know if you're going to stand by while the oil sands and the oil and gas companies are gobbled up like Inco and Falconbridge, but I hope you don't. I hope you stand up to the industry minister and say that our natural resource companies deserve some protection, or at least some public debate.

But I'd like to get into your estimates, Minister, because if you look at them, for a department that you would argue, I suppose, has some priority, the estimates to 2008-09 are reduced by some $400 million, or by close to 30%. I'm wondering if you think that's the way the government sets its priorities.

Second, you talked about, and you have talked before about, energy efficiency and conservation and the importance of that. Of course, we know that the EnerGuide program has been scrubbed. We know that the wind power production incentive has been put on ice, or however you want to refer to it. In fact, in your own words, you talked about the industrial energy efficiency initiatives. I looked at your estimates, and those numbers have gone down from $7.2 million to $4.5 million in 2008-09. So I don't know if that's attaching a lot of priority to industry energy efficiency.

On CO2 capture and storage, which you talk about often, Minister, I looked at your estimates, and there's a paltry amount of $400,000 in 2006-07, which goes down to zero in 2008-09. I'm not sure that is reflecting that sort of priority.

You probably know, also, Minister, that in this committee we adopted a motion for the government to reinstate immediately the EnerGuide program and the WPPI program. I'm wondering if you're going to do that.

I wonder if you'd comment on what I've just said. But also, when you came here last time, you said that the government would have an energy strategy or framework, or however you want to refer to it. We're still waiting, Minister, and the fall is just about over. I know you try to do things very comprehensively, very completely, but we're still waiting for the son or daughter of EnerGuide. We're still waiting for the son or daughter of WPPI. We're still waiting for the energy strategy. When are we going to see these things, sir?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Lunn Conservative Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Let me state this. You've asked a number of questions. Taking the last one, you're looking for the son or daughter of the WPPI or the EnerGuide program. The problem is that we're very unhappy with the parents of the previous program.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

You shouldn't be.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Lunn Conservative Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Well, we are. We're evaluating a lot of things that happened in the past. There are a lot of them that didn't work.

The numbers clearly speak for themselves, Mr. Chair. When greenhouse gases under the previous administration rose at an alarming rate to 35% above their targets, you have to in fact challenge whether the programs they were doing were working. Were they effective? Were they efficient?

I will only say that we are looking at different areas where we believe we can invest in energy efficiency that will give the greatest benefit for the environment and for Canadians. That's where we're focusing our areas.

Mr. Cullen, with respect to the oil sands, you mentioned that they'll be allowed to move forward without any type of controls.

It's exactly the opposite. In fact, under the previous government there were no controls on greenhouse gas emissions. There was never any regulation of pollutants in the atmosphere. In fact, our Clean Air Act will regulate them for the first time in Canadian history. That is exactly why we brought in the Clean Air Act.

We're working with these sectors. We're coming up with tough regulations. These regulations will have to be achievable, they'll have to be realistic, and they will be enforced. I can assure you of that.

On CO2 gases, you also mentioned there was a reduction from $400,000 to zero. I can assure you that we'll be investing millions and millions and tens of millions of dollars in these types of technology.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Where is it?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Lunn Conservative Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Well, it may not be under some of your old programs, but you'll have to wait for this government.

I can tell you that in the nine short months we've been in office, we have launched the most aggressive and ambitious plan to regulate the industry on both pollutants and greenhouse gases in every single sector. Our government will be there to support these industries on energy efficiency. We'll be there looking at renewable energy.

We make absolutely no apology for planning to do things that are different from the previous government. We actually had some serious concerns on a number of areas in which the government was going. When we spend dollars, there will be accountability to ensure they deliver the results they're intended to deliver.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Madam DeBellefeuille.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Minister, the Minister of Finance has stood up to the oil and gas companies, as you mentioned, with regard to income trusts.

As Minister of Natural Resources Canada, do you intend to do your best so that the 100 per cent accelerated capital cost allowance tax incentive given to the oil and gas companies that are developing the oil sands is removed? This would help unlock some fiscal flexibility that could be invested in various ways in the renewable energy sector.

Don't you think that this incentive, which was implemented at a time when the sector probably needed it, is no longer appropriate, and that this measure, given the current cost of the barrel of oil, is a tax incentive that is very costly for Quebec and Canadian taxpayers? Don't you think that it's time for this preferential treatment to end, and for you to use your fiscal flexibility to invest more money in the renewable energy sector? For example, the forest industry wants to produce biomass and is facing a 50 per cent accelerated capital cost allowance, as for wind energy.

Mr. Minister, I think that the taxpayers from Quebec and across Canada who are watching us on television, have every right to wonder why your government is giving these oil and gas companies preferential treatment.

My second question is about the WPPI program. I've asked some questions to the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development. I was told that the program had been suspended, frozen, put on the back burner, that you were reviewing it, and that maybe, one day, it might be reinstated.

There are repercussions; you've seen them, as I have, or you may have read about them in the papers. Among others, one particular case in the Gaspé Peninsula has been going on for a year, and I will name one Gaspesian company, 3Ci. Murdochville was a single-industry mining town that has readjusted by creating jobs in windmill parks. According to this company:

This is an emergency. We have been waiting for nearly a year for a signal from Ottawa to continue the Wind Power Production Incentive Program. In our project preparation plan at 3Ci, we were supposed to be ready to go in the fall. It's now early November. Winter is on its way (...) If the program is not extended, it will imply a major overhaul of the third project's financing package.

Mr. Minister, our jobs and our economic environment are uncertain. The Gaspé Peninsula in Quebec, which is a region that needs to be revitalized, is a perfect example. Can you please tell me why you are delaying the re-establishment of the WPPI program? So I am asking you to tell the members of Parliament here when you plan on reinstating it.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Lunn Conservative Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Let me state at the outset, taking your last question first with respect to wind energy in Canada, I think wind energy will play a very important role in Canada's future energy mix. It's growing. There's enormous opportunity. Obviously it's a very clean form of energy; there are absolutely no emissions, so it's something we're very supportive of. I know you would love for me to suggest any kind of specifics, but obviously I'm unable to do that.

With respect to your capital cost allowance issue with respect to the oil sands, this was brought in, as you know, by the previous government in 1995. It was not even done for the entire oil and gas industry; it was only done specifically for the oil sands in the Fort McMurray region. It was done, as I understand it, to attract the investment dollars required to make those investments.

I've heard your representations. I will pass those along to my colleague the Minister of Finance. As you know, this is clearly a matter for the Department of Finance and the Minister of Finance as they move forward, so it properly belongs in the Finance pre-budget submissions or consultations. That's something I could not even offer a comment on. You would have to get that from my colleague, the Minister of Finance. It's clearly within his purview.

Thank you.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Ms. Bell.

4 p.m.

NDP

Catherine Bell NDP Vancouver Island North, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

And thank you to the minister and the deputy minister, etc., for addressing us today.

I have some concerns about one of the funding initiatives in the estimates. It has to do with chrysotile asbestos. As we know, chrysotile asbestos is known to kill people if handled improperly. There is what looks like an increase in funding to the Chrysotile Institute, which is an organization that is basically promoting a hazardous material.

We know in Canada that if it's handled properly there isn't a risk to people using it or handling it. But we know that this organization is promoting the export of chrysotile asbestos to countries that don't have the capacity to handle it in a safe manner. I would suggest that it's not responsible on the part of this government to fund an organization that is promoting such a hazardous material when we know that the World Health Organization, the ILO, and over 40 countries have spoken out against the use of chrysotile asbestos.

I want to ask why we're funding this, in the first place, and why we're increasing the funding, in the second place.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Lunn Conservative Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Thank you very much, Ms. Bell.

First of all, I don't believe we're increasing the funding. But that's something we can check and get back to you on. As far as I know, the funding was supposed to have remained stable. So if there is an increase, we will definitely get back to the committee and respond to you. But as far as I'm aware, the funding should be stable. There should not be any changes in the level of funding.

That funding is there because we promote the safe use of chrysotile. Chrysotile, as you know, is used in a number of products. It's not used loosely in any products. It's used in cement board or fibreboard to add strength. It's used in many countries for housing materials, where it works very well. It's a very inexpensive form for them to use in these types of building products.

Our government supports the safe use. We go through very strict measures in all of these countries where it's used to ensure it's handled properly and safely.

I've been out to the plant in Quebec. I've been through it. I've raised these concerns personally with the people in the industry. I went out and I've seen it first-hand. They package this material in packaging that, when it's used, goes straight into a machine that actually shreds the packaging in a contained area, so there's literally no dust, no fibres.

I appreciate that some of the ads out there might suggest otherwise, but they do take this very seriously. Our government believes it's important to put funding in place to support the safe use of chrysotile, and that's our position. That's been the position of this government for some time, and it remains unchanged.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Catherine Bell NDP Vancouver Island North, BC

Thank you for the answer.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Lunn Conservative Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

We will get back to you on the funding increase. We'll respond to that.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Catherine Bell NDP Vancouver Island North, BC

Yes, in the estimates it appears to be doubled. I'd ask you to look at that.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Lunn Conservative Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Yes, we're happy to get back to you on that.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Catherine Bell NDP Vancouver Island North, BC

I'm still concerned about the use of it in other countries where they don't have the safety regulations that Canada has.

I have another question, and it's in regard to the offshore oil and gas moratorium, the 1972 moratorium on exploration of oil and gas on the west coast of British Columbia. I would ask you, simply, if you will be lifting that moratorium.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Gary Lunn Conservative Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

That's not something we're planning any time soon. Before a decision like that could ever be undertaken, there would have to be extensive consultations with the first nations, those people affected. So at this point in time, that's not something this government is considering.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Catherine Bell NDP Vancouver Island North, BC

Thank you.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

We will have another round today if we keep this schedule.

Mr. Allen.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Minister, staff, welcome.

I have a couple of areas that I want to push down on a little. One is more of a high level at the policy level, and the other is more at a targeted area in my riding, which affects the forestry industry.

The first one is with respect to energy policy and an allocation with energy policy development analysis. Electricity and petroleum resources are somewhere in the area of around $20 million in 2006-07, and then that decreases over the next couple of years. With that trend in spending going down, do we expect that the policy development is going to be in such a state that we are going to have it well developed enough, from an energy policy standpoint, in the next year or so to make a good contribution to the integration of our energy policy with our environment policy? That's my first question.