Natural Resources Committee on April 18th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

I actually gave you twice as much time as everybody else.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

I know. I found that out.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

This is your topic, and I know you particularly wanted to talk to Mr. Tanguay, but you reached your goal just having him here, and I'm glad you did.

Mr. Del Mastro.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Hornung, obviously integration is a big key when we talk about wind energy. You are talking about total production capacity, which is very important. You talked about the target that Ontario has currently set for wind energy. You think it may be a little conservative.

Isn't it also critical where you're generating that wind energy, due to things like line loss and so forth? Isn't it critical to get these generation fields for wind somewhat close to large centres that are using the energy? Maybe you could talk a little bit about that.

[Robert Hornung]

The most critical thing is to actually build the generation where the wind resource is. We've been fortunate, in the studies that we've sponsored from CanWEA, which have looked at Ontario and Quebec, to see that there is actually a significant wind resource available near existing transmission. There is actually quite a bit more further afield. Ontario's best wind resource is actually in northern Ontario, where you have very little in terms of existing transmission infrastructure.

Yes, it is important. These projects have to be economical ultimately, so clearly the low-hanging fruit, the first place you're going to go, is where you have a good wind resource combined with easy access to the grid. Fortunately, we still have a lot of opportunities for that in Canada.

The other point I wanted to mention, when you talked about location, is that, of course, diversifying the geographic location of wind farms greatly facilitates wind integration, because it dramatically reduces the variability of the wind energy flowing into the system. If you have one wind farm, the wind is going to vary up and down. If you have 10 wind farms, and they're spread out in different locations, the variation is less because the wind doesn't slow down or speed up at the same time in all these different locations, and that smooths it out. That is, for example, in Alberta one of the tools they are going to be looking at, going forward, to help facilitate greater levels of integration.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

With respect specifically to base load capacity, we know that in Ontario the base load draw is somewhere between 16,000 megawatts and 17,000 megawatts, for example, and in peak periods it can run as high as 27,000 megawatts. Do you have any specific recommendations, when we talk about the variable forms of power, of what the proper mix should be? What should we be looking at, for example, from wind, and potentially from solar, potentially from clean coal--if that's the way to go--from hydro electricity, and from nuclear? What do you see as an optimal mix, or do you have an opinion on that?

[Robert Hornung]

I'll take a first crack at that just to say that we have talked about, on a national level, looking at 20% wind penetration, but it will vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. The ability to integrate the variable sources will vary depending on the level of interconnectedness, on the other sources of generation.

What's important to think about going forward is that we're going to be making a tonne of investment in the electricity system in Canada over the next few years. We're going to be investing in new transmission capacity because we've under-invested for a long, long time. We're going to be investing in new sources of generation. If you're looking at a future where you're thinking, “I want to try to maximize and facilitate the integration of renewable sources, not just wind”, that actually has an impact on some of the choices you're going to make with respect to transmission investments, what other types of generation you might find.

One of the big challenges for us, as Canada, in terms of moving towards a sustainable energy future is to ensure that we overlay those investment decisions with that renewable energy lens to ensure that, with some of these investments, which are all long-lived investments--if you build a transmission line, it's going to be there a long time, a generating station for years--you make sure that you do that in a way that doesn't close options for you. In terms of bringing renewable energy online, it should be opening options and allowing us to maximize potential.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Thorne, I was very interested in the part of your presentation about solar being peaking power. Most renewables have peak periods, but it doesn't necessarily line up with the peak energy demand. I'm just curious. We've seen a lot of jurisdictions that seem to be ahead of us with respect to solar, but it's always been very incentive-laden. Wherever solar seems to be doing well, there also seems to be a good government program that has really pushed it, because it tends to be very expensive.

Are we seeing any movement towards making the technology more affordable, which might make it more attractive, say, to the average Canadian to implement?

[Richard Thorne]

One of the challenges that all technologies face, and consumers face, is the evolution of a technology and the price of it. As we're all aware that when it comes to new televisions and computers, whatever you buy today is outdated in 6 to 12 months, and most people sit there and say, “I'll just continue to wait until the price comes down or the technology gets better.” So you can wait forever, basically.

In terms of the solar industry, one of the challenges we face is that other jurisdictions in the world are implementing solar at a very rapid pace. They do see it because a lot of energy demand is peak power, as we know, from many facilities. Everyone is typically working during the day and not at night, and so they are going ahead and purchasing it, and that's really where a lot of the price fluctuations come into play.

So It does need to have some form of incentive, like all energy production, there's no question. And one of the challenges with the technology is that it's very popular in other nations where they are promoting it, and promoting renewables in the energy mix, and that continues to drive demand, which continues to drive price.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

How much fluctuation is there in solar energy between summer and winter, cloudy and not cloudy types of days?

[Richard Thorne]

In terms of the price, you mean, or in terms of—

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

No, how much solar variation is there, depending on weather conditions? And seasonal?

[Richard Thorne]

Certainly here in North America, particularly in the northern climates, you'll see that November, December, and January are really the off-peak months. We can have up to a month. As you saw in November, there was very little sunshine available. But then again a lot of the energy peak demands that happen are during sunny periods or warmer periods, regardless, so it does work quite well towards not only the peak time during the day but also towards seasonal peak demands, particularly for air conditioning.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Tanguay, you mentioned the project in downtown Toronto that would draw cold water from deep parts of the lake and cool buildings. The lake, it would seem to me, is warmed from two regions, one from the lake bottom and one from the sun above it. Would this be so insignificant so as to not potentially damage any of the ecosystems that may rely on cool water?

In addition to that, the lake has a moderating effect, broadly, on the city. Is there any chance it would warm up the overall temperature of the lake, or is it an insignificant draw on it?

[Denis Tanguay]

As far as I know, it's insignificant.

The water, by the way, is not taken from very deep in the lake. It's subsurface. This is the water intake for the water treatment plant in downtown Toronto, so it's connected to that plant. But I've never seen any analysis done.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

So it has a negligible effect.

[Denis Tanguay]

Yes.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Okay, thank you.

[Denis Tanguay]

Lake loops in general, for geoexchange have been shown to have an insignificant effect as well on the water plants.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thanks very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

I think we're going to have to call it at that, because we have some business.

Does anyone have one quick, pressing question they need to ask?

Okay, Mr. Tonks.

[Alan Tonks, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I have a question, Mr. Chairman, following the line of questioning of Mr. Del Mastro and Mr. Bevington with respect to integrated systems and the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, through its green funds.

A lot of the issues that have been discussed here...little parts of it, from local zoning or setting of restrictions and regulatory functions with respect to renewable resources, are governed by local authorities, and there have been some tremendously exciting integrated programs through the municipalities, such as the Okotoks initiative, and I think there was another one out west. The mayor was on W-FIVE the other day, talking about the use of solar, the use of linking into the grid through wind.

The committee might like to consider inviting the Federation of Canadian Municipalities to select two or three of those projects, and...well, I'm not suggesting that we go and visit them—

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

You'll love Okotoks.

[Alan Tonks, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

—but certainly to hear what they might be able to contribute. After all, the subject is the greening of our power and electrical consumption grids, and I think they could contribute to the discussion.

So I just put that out as a suggestion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you.

Thank you again to our witnesses for your participation today. I hope you found it as helpful and as useful as we found it to be.

I'm going to ask the committee if they would bear with us for one minute while our witnesses pack up. I have three quick topics I want to go over.

One is on Mexico, and I want to comment on that because I'm not sure everybody was here. We have a request from a group of parliamentarians from Mexico. We are going to follow it up with an invitation from the committee to appear here, and we'll also take them to dinner. I expect there will be about half a dozen of them. I think we'll manage quite well, and we'll have some Spanish translation as well for those who require it. We'll report back. The clerk will consult with them, and we'll get you dates and times.

The next one is on logistics. I want to comment on the distribution of materials that our witnesses provide. We try to get them in advance. We've been reasonably successful in having the witnesses provide us with material in both languages, particularly on short notice. More recently, we have been trying to get them to you more quickly by sending them online through e-mail, and it seems to be reasonably efficient.

I want to again ask you all to designate someone on your staff to watch for this stuff, because we sometimes find that some members get it and others don't get it. I can assure you that it is sent to everybody. I want to remind you to check on it, because it makes it easy for everybody. But if you don't get something, please let me know.

The other thing I found very effective is when some of the witnesses come with their decks in colour, particularly when there are charts, graphs, and stuff. When we e-mail them to you, if you don't have colour printers in your offices—and I don't think very many of us have them—you don't get the full benefit of the charts and graphs. I'm going to ask the clerk if he can look into that somehow.

If we have coloured charts or graphs particularly, we don't have to print the whole deck. We could tell the witnesses to bring them. It's easier for us to follow the charts if they are in colour and not in black and white. Maybe you could suggest that the witnesses bring some extra copies in colour when they come. We can have an advance look at them when we get them by e-mail and when we're doing our homework. But when we look at them and follow them as they're making their presentations, it's nice to be able to follow them as they were distributed to us.

If anybody has any further comments on that, please direct them to me or to the clerk. It's coming along.

Last, I want to give Todd a few minutes to talk about Labrador and to bring you up to speed. I think we did it at the last meeting.

We're leaving at 7:30 in the morning from Ottawa, and we hope to get back by 4:30 in the afternoon. One of the restraints on our time to try to maintain the cost is to take a charter flight there and back. There is a limit on the pilots' time to be up and back and forth, and we can't extend it too much longer than that.

At this point, we are only including the visit to Churchill Falls, the plant, and a briefing from Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. We'll get a full itinerary next week. We're still putting it together. The logistics are not particularly easy in a remote area, as Todd will tell you

But he has another request, so I'll turn it over to him.