Evidence of meeting #51 for Natural Resources in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was solar.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Christian Vachon  Engineer, Business and Technological Development, Enerconcept Technologies Inc.
Howard Brown  Assistant Deputy Minister, Energy Policy Sector, Department of Natural Resources
Tom Wallace  Director General, Electricity Resources Branch, Department of Natural Resources
David Torgerson  Senior Vice-President, Technology, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited
Mike Allen  Tobique—Mactaquac, CPC

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Order, please.

We will begin this, the 51st meeting of the Standing Committee on Natural Resources.

I have a couple of housekeeping details to discuss with the committee, so I'm going to ask our witness today to bear with us just for a moment. I apologize for that. But we have a bit of a change in the upcoming schedules and I just want to get the views of the committee before making decisions on those matters.

The first one is that we were expecting a visit next Tuesday from a delegation of Mexican parliamentarians, and their trip has been delayed one day, which certainly can be accommodated with regard to their meeting with us. We had suggested we were going to get together on Tuesday for a separate meeting of about an hour and then go to dinner on Tuesday night, if you'll recall. I think we could make arrangements to incorporate a presentation into our Wednesday meeting, because we are just going to be discussing the report, in any event. And perhaps following that, if they came to the second half of the meeting, we could then go for dinner on Wednesday night, if that fits people's schedules.

The one obvious concern would be that there might be votes, but even at that, we could have them make a presentation for an hour, until 5:30, and we could go to vote and then maybe reconvene at 6:30 for dinner.

Let me leave that with you for a minute, if you want to check with your offices over your BlackBerrys or whatever during the course of the meeting, and we could maybe make a decision at the close of the meeting.

3:35 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Is it this week or next week?

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

It's next week. June 5 and June 6 were the days in question. June 5 was the day they were to appear; they now will be in Canada on June 6.

I'll leave that with you. We'll discuss it again at the end of the meeting, but I just wanted to give you those parameters so that we could accommodate them in that regard.

In addition to that, I think we will have the first draft of what we've heard so far from witnesses available tomorrow or Wednesday morning. We're getting the translation completed. We'll try to get that out tomorrow so you can at least have a quick look at it, and then we'll start consideration of that on Wednesday of this week.

I think that's all the housekeeping business we have for the time being.

We welcome our first witness today, Christian Vachon, from Enerconcept Technologies Inc., pursuant to our study of the greening of electricity consumption in Canada.

Mr. Vachon will begin with about a 10-minute presentation and then be open to the committee for questions.

Please begin.

3:35 p.m.

Christian Vachon Engineer, Business and Technological Development, Enerconcept Technologies Inc.

Thank you, everybody, for inviting me. It's my second time here with you, as I was here last year in June.

Talking more specifically about solar energy in Canada, I think there's enormous potential. Most of don't think there's enormous potential for a northern country like ours, but there is and it is untapped. I would like to show you today what this potential is, what technologies are there, and whether we can do something to improve our situation relative to the rest of the world.

I was asked first to show you what I've done in the past personally. I'm an engineer, and I lived in Austria from 1991 to 1995. That led me to learn a lot more about solar energy because it is widespread over there. Following that passion, I did a master's degree, specializing in that very field of solar heating, at the University of Melbourne in Australia, and then I started my own company in 1998. That leads to about 15 years' experience on the ground for solar energy projects, mostly solar heating, and I will tell you a bit more about that later. Over the years I was also involved very much with the Canadian Solar Industry Association and the various committees of the department. We do work internationally as well in the Caribbean, Europe, and also in Africa.

I'll go on to the next slide. I don't know if you can count the number of zeroes followed by kilowatt hours, but if you look at the amount of solar energy we get on the planet in 20 minutes, the sun gives us as much energy as the whole world spends in 20 minutes. That's basically what it amounts to.

Is there an abundant resource there? There is. To tap into this abundant resource there are three technologies. Sometimes we tend to mix them up, but the first one is photovoltaics and it makes electricity. So that's one technology: “photo” for light and “voltaics” for producing electricity. Then there's water heating. Of course we can heat water, and also we can heat air with the sun. Basically, those are the three main technologies.

If you look at how it applies in Canada, here you have the energy needs of typical Canadian homes. You will see that most of the energy that we need from one ocean to the other, of course with variations, is for space heating. Again, it will vary from province to province, but it accounts for about 60%. This is where solar air heating or water heating can help. There is 22% now going to water heating in general. If you look at the bottom, you'll see that lighting and using computers and appliances accounts for about 20%. That's where each technology can fit it in: photovoltaics for making electricity, and solar space heating by water or air.

Specifically for space heating, do we have good conditions or not? The answer is yes, and it's climatic conditions that we're talking about. The graph is pretty clear, for example, when you look at numerous cities in the world and then Canadian cities. On the axis below, the further right you go the more heating needs there are and the colder it is. The further you go to the right, the more heat you need.

The axis, going up, shows winter radiation. The further up you go, the more sun there is in the winter. For example, in Helsinki, Oslo, and Moscow you can see they need a lot of heat, just like us in our major cities, but they don't have as much sun as we do. If you look at Flagstaff in Arizona, there is a lot of sun, but they don't need as much heat as we do.

The upper right-hand side of that square is basically where we stand. Toronto and Halifax are good, Montreal is even better, and Edmonton and Winnipeg are probably the best spots in the world for solar heating. I think that is something very important that we need to keep in mind, to have a worldwide perspective. We're probably, along with Siberia, the best place in the world to have solar heating.

If you look at the unit cost of each of these technologies.... It was meant to be a PowerPoint presentation, so you can see the little arrows coming down, but I think it's fairly clear the way it is. On the one side I put PV, for photovoltaics.

Sometimes we tend to mix up the technologies and say it is expensive. If you look at solar electricity, the current state is that it costs 30¢ per kilowatt hour to make electricity with solar. If you look at all the other technologies--SDHW, which is solar domestic hot water, solar pool heating, solar air ventilation, and passive solar--they're all under the 5¢-per-kilowatt-hour mark. That's using, of course, the method devised by Natural Resources Canada here to calculate the cost per kilowatt hour. They basically take all the energy produced by the collector over 20 years. The initial cost, divided by all the energy produced, gives you a cost per kilowatt hour. That's it. They put a maintenance cost on that, an interest rate, and all accounted for, that's what we come down to.

That is with current technologies with no subsidies. So the only barrier to the full expansion of solar technologies, basically, is the initial investment hurdle. That's all there is to it.

I often use the analogy, for example, of a major dam in Quebec. If we build a major dam and it costs $2 billion, the day the dam is finished, do we charge every single citizen in the province $15,000 to get the dam into operation? We don't. We just transfer the cost over the next decades, and what we get is a fixed cost per kilowatt hour.

Solar energy is the exact opposite. Customers who want to go for it have to basically pay up front and then benefit from the savings.

Surprisingly, some countries have really taken a major lead in the world, and not the sunniest countries, as you will see. This curve here shows the progression of solar domestic hot water systems in Austria and in Canada. Some of you may remember that in the 1980s there were generous subsidy programs in Canada, so basically an industry developed up until the mid-1980s, and I think the magnitude of this industry was an $800 million turnover in North America; the same curve of solar applies for the U.S. So we were ahead of European countries at the time. And then the subsidies just dried up.

But in countries like Austria, and Germany later on, they kept going. But you see the curve for Austria here, a country of 7.5 million people, with about two-thirds of the sunshine we have; it developed into a multi-billion dollar industry.

If you happen to go to Frankfurt in mid-March or to Intersolar in Freiburg, Germany, at the end of June, where we're going to be an exhibitor...you're talking about a major industry. We're talking about trade shows that look like the heating and cooling industry in North America. It's huge.

Most of us, I find, don't realize that it's become a multi-billion dollar industry over there. Countries like Austria, Germany, Sweden...France is now picking up. Spain is doing really well, and Italy is really going up.

If we look at another technology called photovoltaics--again, just giving information on the three technologies--and if you look at OECD countries, we rank at number 15 in Canada on a per capita financing basis for IEA, International Energy Agency, countries. The International Energy Agency is a branch of the OECD. This is where we stand on a per capita basis.

On the next slide, to tell you about the magnitude of what they do in Germany, if you go to solarbusiness.de you will get this graph, which does show that currently there are more people employed in the renewable energy industry in Germany than in what we call traditional or conventional energy sources, for example, coal and nuclear.

For solar and the rest of the renewable energy technologies, including wind, biomass, heat pumps, and things of that kind, there are about 130,000 people employed right now in Germany for this. If you go there, again you will see that we stand where they stood in 1975, before they really started building up a consciousness about adopting solar on a large scale. In terms of dissemination, of course, technology is available here, but in terms of proliferation, this is where we stand. We're about 30 years behind.

If you look at the economic benefits of having decentralized power with solar energy, you will realize that if you put collectors everywhere, that creates a lot of jobs per gigawatt hour or per energy unit produced. There are tables like that including all energy technologies. If you compare with nuclear, for example, or if you compare with hydro, or if you compare with thermal energy, you create about 4,000 jobs per 1,000 gigawatt hours of solar energy produced as opposed to 72, for instance, with nuclear. So there is a lot of job creation there, and they benefit from it a lot in Europe.

This is a map of the Canadian natural gas network, basically to show that from the source to the end-user there's a long distance, whereas if you look at this lower slide, if you put a solar collector on any given building it does produce heat on the spot; it's energy saved right on the spot. It doesn't need wires, power lines, pipelines; it's really where energy is used. To simply give you an idea, on each one of your homes you get as much solar energy as you will consume in a year. Simply calculate the number of kilowatt hours per square metre for your home times what you use--look at your electricity bill--you will find that there is as much as two to three times as much solar energy in your home than what you actually consume in gas or electricity.

Of course, that eases pressure on the network. It could be for the grid or gas lines. Each energy unit produced, of course, can be exported.

And if you look at national security issues, solar energy presents no danger. You don't need to fear an attack on one single central station whereby the whole country would be immobilized. Being decentralized, it's of course a major plus with respect to national security issues.

What I wish to raise as a conclusion is that basically, if you compare it to other countries and you compare even within the energy industry, there's chronic underfunding for solar energy. You can correct me if I am wrong--you probably know the numbers better than I do--but you're looking at maybe $40 million for the next four years in solar energy development. I think it's about $1.5 billion or $1.4 billion that we spend on helping the fossil fuel industry, basically also keeping in mind that it's also solar energy but stored in the planets for thousands or millions of years.

To create new technology and also for the proliferation of existing technologies, not only does research and development need to be done, but existing technologies also suffer from lack of incentives, and again, to overcome this initial investment barrier, Canada certainly could and should lead the world--especially for space heating, as I've tried to show you. It fits very well in a global renewable energy mix with wind power, geothermal energy, and with biomass as well. Solar fits in. It's easy to integrate. And of course, it's a sure bet to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Every single solar collector out there that does bring in 700 kilowatt hours per square metre is a net saving in greenhouse gas emissions.

I do hope this gives you some insight into promoting this rather unknown and untapped technology.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you, Mr. Vachon.

We'll begin questions with Mr. St. Amand.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Lloyd St. Amand Liberal Brant, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have just a couple of questions and I will defer to another colleague. I'd like to leave in about six to seven minutes' time.

Thanks for coming, Mr. Vachon. I believe it was you who, in a pretty compelling fashion, told us about a year ago about the comparison between Gleisdorf, Austria, a town of 35,000 people, which has installed solar heating capacity commensurate with all of Canada, with our 32 million people. So it's not a lack of the resource. It's abundant here in Canada. Presumably it's not a lack of technology or expertise, because however little known it might be, it does exist, clearly. You have considerable experience with the Austria example in particular, because you were there for some four or five years, according to your little biography.

So I'll use a hypothetical scenario, as childlike as this question may sound. You become next week the Minister of Natural Resources. What do you do as the Minister of Natural Resources to get us to the point where we're no longer 30 years behind Germany and probably an equivalent number of years behind Austria? What do you do?

3:55 p.m.

Engineer, Business and Technological Development, Enerconcept Technologies Inc.

Christian Vachon

Well, I would certainly try first, I guess, to look at the overall energy policy of Canada and to see where we as ministers have to push, where we want to push. It wouldn't be worth fighting against other agendas. Do we have a clear agenda here to introduce solar? Are we serious about it or not? So of course I would pump in more money and more resources there.

One thing I also said a year ago is that I would be very stable. I would go for a long-term commitment in supporting solar energy development and solar energy deployment, definitely, and not for sunset programs, or two and a half years one way. We have seen in other countries that what really does work is government support that is steady. So let's make it safe, make it smaller, make it steady. That's certainly one way I would go.

Again, on a long-term vision, I would certainly envisage looking at the energy mix again, because the goal here is not to try to have the whole of Canada switching to solar energy; it's to have the whole of Canada having a coherent energy policy that does include all technologies--a phase-out, if possible, of fossil fuels, because we'll have to go there anyway. We'll have to phase out of this anyway within the next 100 years, so we might as well begin and get a headstart on that.

I would certainly try to move away from the fossil fuels with that energy mix as quickly as we can do it without hurting the economy. Again, without hurting the economy, I think countries like Denmark with wind and Germany with solar have proven they can build wealth out of renewable energy. It's not a theory; it's actually a fact. So I'd try to move away from that. With the resources that Canada has at hand, we could actually move towards that. I can see we would have 25 by 25--25 gigawatts by 2025. I would try to go that way.

So that would build a solid solar industry here, and we could actually export our technology, like the Germans and the Chinese do right now, to the rest of the world. I think we could do it, especially for space heating.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Lloyd St. Amand Liberal Brant, ON

If you're familiar enough with the programming over the years in either Germany or Austria, what was it that the federal governments in those countries actually did by way of money, incentives, tax grants, subsidies? Or are you familiar enough with the mechanics of how the money was infused into the...?

3:55 p.m.

Engineer, Business and Technological Development, Enerconcept Technologies Inc.

Christian Vachon

I'm more familiar with Germany and Austria. They have federal programs and they've also had provincial programs, so they tie the two. First, they have been very steady. Also, they've been looking at each technology and not putting them all in the same pack. They say, okay, for solar water heating, for example, we'll give so much per square foot, per square metre; for solar space and water heating, we'll give a little more. And all companies involved in the solar business do benefit from the same grants. So that's one of the things they did to make it successful.

Some tried going into carbon credits and some also did go into leasing, making sure that utilities could lease solar collectors, so that overcomes the initial investment barrier. Some went into guaranteed buyback energy programs, as has been the case now in Ontario, for example. They tried that over 10 years ago.

So they've tried all sorts of ways, but recipe number one was stability--commitment and stability, definitely.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Lloyd St. Amand Liberal Brant, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

If there's time left, I'll defer to my colleague.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Sure. There are a couple of minutes.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm probably going to have to pick up when we come back for the second round of questioning, but how does this technology compare to, say, geothermal, as an example? There's a lot of talk as well about utilizing geothermal technology for individual homes. Could you talk about the relative advantages?

I understand that obviously you're more involved with solar, so you'd have more knowledge on that, but could you provide a little bit of contrast to us from your perspective?

3:55 p.m.

Engineer, Business and Technological Development, Enerconcept Technologies Inc.

Christian Vachon

I also have a fair amount of knowledge on geothermal energy. We can actually couple both; both help each other. If we tie a solar system to a geothermal system, you'll get more benefits from the geothermal system and you'll get good benefits from your solar system, so one with the other is very good,.

What I would say is that solar is certainly more applicable in the building and geothermal is more applicable around the building--if you dig into the ground, and so on--so the two compare.

If you look at one single building, what do you do? Do you look for the solar aspect of it? Could they be integrated architecturally? Geothermal doesn't need to; as long as you have land, you can dig. It's easy to do.

Sometimes it is more expensive than solar. Also, geothermal is very sensitive to installation--very sensitive. It's been said by the geothermal coalition, based here in Ottawa, that about 40% of geothermal systems work optimally, and the others don't--not because the technology is not mature, but because installation is not mature.

The same would happen in Canada. If we start going widespread now, at first the same would probably happen as happened in other countries with installation. The technology is there; the installation is sometimes more difficult at first. We do need some training.

If I compare both technologies, I would say geothermal is basically solar energy stored in the ground. You get it straight away from the sun, passively or actively, or you get it from the ground.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

As a follow-up to that, one of the things I find very interesting is that the conservation authorities in Ontario--and particularly the one in my region, the Toronto Region Conservation Authority--have begun to move into planning for new build, not just for conservation measures that pertain to the environment or ecosystem, but also in terms of how those homes are going to be utilizing electricity, which is obviously something new.

When you're talking about new build, one of the things they're looking at is geothermal. That's why I ask about it. A community of roughly 60,000 people is going to be built, slightly under 30,000 households, and they're looking at placing geothermal throughout it. How critical do you see that type of early planning before building occurs--laying out certain requirements for solar or geothermal, and putting that in front of any new build that might occur?

4 p.m.

Engineer, Business and Technological Development, Enerconcept Technologies Inc.

Christian Vachon

It's very critical to be there when the building is being planned, and it's very difficult for a geothermal energy supplier or a solar energy supplier to be there when it is being planned. It's much easier to go and retrofit, where you have somebody who's already paid his bills and realizes he can save energy from that. But it's better to do it while the planning's in process.

One of the things we could suggest--and we've already suggested it to you--is to make it mandatory for a geothermal analysis and a solar energy analysis to be done on any new institutional building. That would force the architects and the engineer, the professionals involved in the product, to agree that while it's not compulsory to do it, they would be provided with a report on what you've seen and the manufacturers that you've talked to, and at least it will have been looked at.

Your question is very critical.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

Very briefly, how do you think it is best to go about it? What would you think would be best, as an example? One of the advantages, obviously, is that over the lifespan there's a recovery period of the reduced energy costs paying off the technology; the difficulty for the builder is that initial up-front cost.

Would you see something by the federal government--a loan, as an example--to help pay off the up-front costs? Then the consumer could pay it back; their electricity costs may be even slightly lower than normal, and after a certain period of time, bang, the whole thing's done. Would that be an effective federal program?

4 p.m.

Engineer, Business and Technological Development, Enerconcept Technologies Inc.

Christian Vachon

I think it would definitely be a very effective federal program. It's been tried. It's been tried in Australia and it's been tried in Austria. It's actually being tried also by Gaz Métro in Montreal. An interest-free loan to get you started is really a good thing, definitely. I think it would work, yes.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

Thank you, Mr. Holland and Mr. Vachon.

We'll now go to Mr. Ouellet.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The first point I want to make clear is that solar and geothermal energy are attractive options for producing electricity and heat, but they are not just for houses. This is the turn the discussion has taken just recently, and I find that unfortunate, because it may give committee members the impression that solar and geothermal energy are mainly for use in housing. They are important for housing, but in my view, they are more important for other large buildings, and not just new ones. We have talked about new developments, and you mentioned that this type of energy should be used in each new project. But why not talk about all the existing buildings in Canada that could some day depend on solar or geothermal energy? This could be added to existing buildings.

4:05 p.m.

Engineer, Business and Technological Development, Enerconcept Technologies Inc.

Christian Vachon

Well, there is no doubt that it is more difficult to use geothermal energy than solar energy in existing buildings. It is not impossible, but it is much more difficult. It is easy to retrofit a building for solar energy.

In any case, 95% of the projects in which our company is involved are non-residential. You were right. We find that projects that offer a good return on investment are mainly in industry. So what could be described as the low-hanging fruit are really the large industrial and institutional buildings, where the need to heat the air and water is greater.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

There are some very large solar energy and geothermal energy developments at the moment. Spain is manufacturing solar collectors to produce energy. Even Ontario appears interested in doing this. So it is on the same scale as nuclear production.

4:05 p.m.

Engineer, Business and Technological Development, Enerconcept Technologies Inc.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

I think you made a small mistake when you were speaking about geothermal energy and said that digging was required in order to use it. I think that is a little out of date, since drilling is done to depths of 3,000, 4,000 and 5,000 feet. A geothermal well can provide electricity for an entire community.

Do you agree with that?

4:05 p.m.

Engineer, Business and Technological Development, Enerconcept Technologies Inc.

Christian Vachon

It is not used to produce electricity, but rather to replace the electricity that would be used to produce heat. That is true. Geothermal energy produces heat. Ultimately, people will save on electricity, without doubt, particularly if they heat with electricity, which 32% of homes in Canada do. So people will save on electricity.

In addition, I agree that the new drilling techniques allow for much more shallow drilling, and thus make it possible to serve a much larger area, rather than having a system for each house, which is more costly.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Could you talk to us briefly about the attempts that have been made in Canada? I remember particularly that Philips installed vacuum tubes in a large number of buildings, but then they disappeared. I also remember Solarwall.

What mistakes did the government, companies or others make in your opinion? Why are there almost no more of these tubes around?