Evidence of meeting #9 for Natural Resources in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was aecl.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
I think the committee should understand that the minister has matters to attend to at 12:30, so he can't stay forever. I just wanted to make that point.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
We'll have two short questions here, and then we'll allow the minister to go. He has commitments at 12:30. It is very generous of him to have extended for that amount of time.
Madame DeBellefeuille.
12:20 p.m.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Minister, you told me earlier that the reactor was currently being operated in compliance with the conditions of its licence. Can you confirm that?
12:20 p.m.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC
Last November 19, after a routine periodic maintenance operation, when Atomic Energy Canada reported to the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission, discrepancies were noted between the licence conditions and the physical state of the facility. On November 22, AECL voluntarily shut down the reactor for a prolonged period. This was not in response to an order or a request from the president of the commission, but AECL informed her that it wanted to shut down the reactor for an extended period.
My question, Minister, will seem quite simple. If it was complying with the conditions of its licence and realized in its discussions with the commission that there was an issue, why did the AECL decide to extend the shutdown since according to that body, it was respecting the conditions of its licence? At that time, it had the possibility and the authority to restart its reactor without the permission of the commission. Why did it decide to prolong the shutdown of its reactor?
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Gary Lunn Conservative Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
In fact, Mr. Chair, the discussions were ongoing even prior to November 19. In fact, it was earlier in November and other points in time when there was communication with respect to the item that was in disagreement between the two agencies.
I'm advised it became clear to AECL in their discussions--and their discussions were daily to try to resolve this issue--that they did not have the permission of the CNSC to restart. In fact it was confirmed by the former president and CEO of the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission on December 6 that had they restarted, she would have shut them down. In fact, she did make that statement.
It was clear in their discussions with the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission that they did not have permission to restart, so they elected--obviously they didn't have permission--to continue to engage in a dialogue proposing different solutions, working with the commission to try to prevent the situation they ended up in.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you, Madame DeBellefeuille.
We have two more people who would like to ask questions. We have to shorten the period of time. We will allow the minister to leave at 12:30. He has other business.
Mr. Alghabra, go ahead for two or three minutes.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Minister, you're high on fulfilling executive responsibility. Who have you fired at AECL?
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Don't you think AECL senior management is ultimately responsible for the performance of the NRU reactor?
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Gary Lunn Conservative Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
Mr. Chair, again we have an ongoing review of AECL. The CEO who we just appointed earlier this month is in fact doing that review, and we will wait for that review.
Thank you.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Minister, you said you tried very hard to make the distinction that this was a licensing issue, not a safety issue. Do you agree that the purpose or the job of the commission is actually to issue a licence based on safety considerations?
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Gary Lunn Conservative Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
Yes. In fact, the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission has the complete jurisdiction and authority to issue the licence to all operators in Canada with respect to nuclear.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Based on safety considerations. That's their job. The licence is based on safety.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
All right. So there's no distinction here.
Second, you mentioned that there's a dispute, there's a difference of opinion between AECL and the commission. Do you agree that the commission is the arbitrator of nuclear safety issues?
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Gary Lunn Conservative Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
Oh, there's no question. The dispute, though, arises where in fact there actually was a licence condition. That's the dispute, where in fact.... Listen, there was a dispute between the two agencies. That is clear. Everybody is fully aware of that.
Again, when it came to the issue of where I had to become involved, our entire focus was to ensure, number one, that we wouldn't do anything at all that would compromise safety in any way, shape, or form, but that, as the facts presented themselves by all parties, we could resume medical isotopes production. It was unnecessary to put at risk the health of literally thousands of Canadians--
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Gary Lunn Conservative Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
--who could potentially die. We had to take that action.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
You asked me to manage my time, Mr. Chair, so I'm trying to manage my time.
Do you agree, about the two independent witnesses you brought, that one of them was a former AECL employee and the other one a vice-president of a Conservative riding association?
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Gary Lunn Conservative Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
Yes, I do acknowledge that after the fact. I can only tell you that at the time, I asked the deputy minister to find me two independent experts who could provide us advice on this. We wanted independent advice. Obviously we were receiving information from both agencies. That information was not known at the time.
These experts were found by the department. Maybe I could defer to the deputy to respond.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Would you agree that after finding that information--
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Mr. Alghabra, you asked an important question. I do think the deputy minister should be allowed a little bit of time to respond.
12:25 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Natural Resources
Mr. Chair, I was asked by the minister to identify two independent nuclear safety experts on very short notice. It was my responsibility to identify those two. We found the two individuals through the department and through our contacts in the department. We had absolutely no knowledge of any partisan background of either of those individuals.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative