Evidence of meeting #24 for Natural Resources in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nru.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Hugh MacDiarmid  President and Chief Executive Officer, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited
Bill Pilkington  Senior Vice-President and Chief Nuclear Officer, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited
Michael Binder  President, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission
Peter Elder  Director General, Directorate of Nuclear Cycle and Facilities Regulation, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission

4:10 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited

Hugh MacDiarmid

I would say, first and foremost, our primary obligation is to produce isotopes in the facilities we have at our disposal, and that's what we set about to do. It is not really our place to be out stimulating other production in the context of our commercial arrangements with MDS Nordion. In fact, it would be MDS Nordion that would have the contractual right to be looking for additional sources of supply in the event that we were unable to supply them.

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Luc Malo Bloc Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC

You say that the production of isotopes for medical purposes is part of AECL's core mission, that the plan was for the MAPLE to make this possible and that the NRU was, for all practical purposes, in its final days.

How can you reconcile all these elements and say that your concern, basically, was people's health, since you've just told us that you were motivated by commercial considerations, and not by the concern to make sure that local people who had to undergo tests had available everything necessary for these tests to be carried out by health professionals?

4:15 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited

Hugh MacDiarmid

I operate within a field of play that is defined by very specific boundaries, and those boundaries are the policy direction of the Government of Canada. They are the regulatory framework we operate within, the funding that is made available to me, and very importantly, the contracts that I have of a commercial nature. When I look within that, that's what guides my behaviour.

I can assure you that our goal, within those constraints, is to be as reliable a supplier of isotopes as we can, and to operate the facilities we have as effectively as possible, while being safe.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Malo.

We go now to the government side, to Mr. Allen, for as much time as you would like, up to two minutes.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair. You're always generous to me. I appreciate that.

Gentlemen, thank you for being here today.

Mr. MacDiarmid, you said in your remarks, “We will return the NRU to service as soon as possible, with lasting repairs and every assurance of safe operation”. I'm always concerned, having some experience in project management, about scope creep. As part of your management of this situation, how will you manage that? As you're looking at the reactor and looking at things, does “lasting repairs“ mean you're going to identify other things, or are you going to go right after these specific issues as part of this project and deal with other stuff later on?

4:15 p.m.

Senior Vice-President and Chief Nuclear Officer, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited

Bill Pilkington

I will speak to that, Mr. Chair.

We have put a project team together to specifically address the repair and return to service of NRU. They will be selecting repair strategies in order to provide for long-term, reliable operation.

Having gone to the effort of shutting down and the effort that will be required to do the inspections and assessment, we need to have a long-lasting repair. To do a very short-term repair and have to return again in the near future wouldn't make sense.

While we're doing this work and while we're shut down, we will in fact be undertaking other improvements. But our primary mission is to bring the NRU back to service, and we are not going to allow any of the other work that we undertake to in any way lengthen or interfere with the critical path back to operation.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

If I understand you correctly, then, if it's a necessary repair as part of taking out the fuel and draining the heavy water, that will be done. However, if it's something sort of ancillary and you think we can put that off, you will put that off.

4:15 p.m.

Senior Vice-President and Chief Nuclear Officer, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited

Bill Pilkington

Yes. We have a lot of improvement work to do in order to renew the operating licence in 2011, so we'll be undertaking some of that work, but at no time will we allow any other work to interfere with the primary repair of putting the NRU back into service.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you very much, Mr. Allen, and thank you, Mr. MacDiarmid and Mr. Pilkington.

Yes, Mr. Regan.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Mr. Chair, I wonder if members of the committee would agree to have another round with the folks from AECL. The key questions here for today's witnesses are really surrounding the work of AECL and the NRU. Perhaps committee members may have concerns about the safety issues, and there may be some, but I think the primary concern is the production of isotopes. I wonder if members would agree to that.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Mr. Anderson, then Mr. Cullen.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

I'll let Nathan go ahead.

Go ahead, Nathan.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Go ahead, Mr. Cullen.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

I have one suggestion that might work. I was finding myself thinking that there's so much connection between the two sets of witnesses today that we do need to hear the presentation from the folks from the CNSC. I'm wondering if we could keep the AECL folks at the table and members could then choose, because there are one or two follow-ups, but there are connections between. We've done this in committees before, when there's an obvious connection between sets of witnesses. Sometimes the answer doesn't exist within one group and you can turn to the other. It helps committee members, and I think witnesses as well, to understand.

I make that suggestion to the committee, to follow up Mr. Regan's suggestion.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Mr. Cullen, we have scheduled these witnesses to come here separately today, and we should stick to that agenda. In terms of the time, too, we should stick to the agenda, unless we can get unanimous consent.

Mr. Anderson.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

If these folks want them back again, we can invite them back, but we're on limited time here. We had an agreement that at 5:15 we would go in camera, and I think CNSC is an important witness as well. I think we should hear from them, and if the committee wants to invite these folks back, we can do that later.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Okay.

Mr. Cullen.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Mr. Chair, I don't think anyone's suggesting extended time or anything like that, and we're not suggesting the witnesses, the other ones, go away. I just think there can be easy collaboration. They've just got to shift a couple of chairs over and we can hear the next presentation and go on with it. I don't see any major problem or reason for why not. It doesn't cause any harm.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

They were scheduled to come separately, and it will remain that way.

Now, whether we extend the time.... Mr. Regan, I think you have something to say on that.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Given the importance of this issue to Canadians, it shocks me that the government would want to shut down part of this and limit it. These are critical witnesses on an issue of great concern to Canadians. We've only had them for one hour. We've had a very short time for questions. I'm not looking for a lot more time, but I think Mr. Cullen has made a very reasonable suggestion in terms of how to deal with this, and I can't understand why the government would not agree, unless it wants to shut this down.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Mr. Regan, as you would know, I think we have a total of four days left for committee till the end of this session. Various members of the committee invited 30 witnesses to be heard on this issue alone. How do we do that if we don't keep the time they're at the committee to a reasonable length? It's a balance, and it's a tough thing to do.

I think we should stick to our schedule. We've agreed. The notice was for this amount of time. As Mr. Anderson said, we can invite them back.

Thank you very much, gentlemen, from Atomic Energy of Canada Limited. Thank you for your help to this committee and the information you've given today.

We will suspend for just two minutes, if we can make the switch as quickly as possible, and we'll have our next witnesses, from the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission, come before the committee.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

We will reconvene this meeting.

For the second segment of this meeting, for about 50 minutes, we have, from the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission, Michael Binder, president, and Peter Elder, director general of nuclear cycle and facilities regulation.

Thank you very much, gentlemen, for coming this afternoon. I'm looking forward to what you have to say and to hearing your answers to the questions.

Go ahead.

4:25 p.m.

Dr. Michael Binder President, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am happy to be here to discuss with you the role of the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission, especially with regard to Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, since the recent shutdown of the National Research Universal reactor.

This is the third opportunity I have had to appear before this committee in less than a year, the most recent previous occasion being on February 24, 2009, to discuss a heavy-water leak from the NRU in December 2008.

I am sure that by now members of the committee are quite familiar with the CNSC, but I would like to take this opportunity to remind members of a few key points.

The CNSC is Canada's only nuclear regulator, and nuclear regulation is exclusively a federal jurisdiction. The CNSC is an effective and independent regulator. It is a quasi-judicial administrative tribunal that operates under the Nuclear Safety Control Act. Its mandate is very clear: it regulates for the protection of health, safety, and security of Canadians and the environment, and as well it respects Canada's international commitments on the peaceful use of nuclear energy.

The commission's decisions are final and binding. They are subject to review only by the Federal Court, and not by the government. When making its decisions, members of the commission take into account all relevant factors without compromising safety.

The CNSC's regulatory scope stretches from nuclear power reactors to uranium mines and mills, from fuel fabrication facilities and waste management to nuclear substances and radiation devices, and to many other facilities and activities in between.

How good Canada's nuclear regulatory framework is and how well we are doing as a nuclear regulator is currently being assessed by a team of 20 international experts from 13 countries, under the auspices of the International Atomic Energy Agency. These experts arrived in Canada last Sunday and will wrap up their activities on June 12. They will be visiting many sites across Canada during their stay. They will release a publicly available, comprehensive report sometime in the fall.

Let me turn to the ongoing outage of the NRU. To quote Mr. Richard Meserve, the chairman of the International Nuclear Safety Group and the former chairman of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission, “Guarding against the rare but possibly catastrophic accident requires eternal vigilance and a never-ending fight against complacency”. This is what the CNSC does.

CNSC staff are located and work on-site at Chalk River Laboratories and oversee all licensed activities that AECL conducts with respect to the NRU. These activities include the import of nuclear material to CRL, which is irradiated in the NRU, then removed and processed to extract molybdenum-99. The CNSC also oversees the transport of the moly-99 from CRL to MDS Nordion in Kanata, Ontario.

With respect to medical radioisotopes, the CNSC issues licences for the production, processing, transport, import, export, and possession of medical isotopes.

Health Canada regulates the use of biologics, which include radioisotopes and radiopharmaceuticals. CNSC staff is ready to consider and respond quickly to requests from licensees for licence amendments to possess increased quantities of alternative radioisotopes, such as thallium-201.

It is important to understand that CNSC is not responsible for making sure that there is a sufficient supply of isotopes. The CNSC is, however, responsible for making sure that, whatever isotope is being produced, it is done in a safe way.

Following the tripping of the reactor on Thursday, May 14, 2009, the CNSC was informed by AECL on May 15 of signs of a heavy-water leak from the NRU. AECL decided to keep the reactor shut down, and CNSC agreed with this decision.

Later in the day, AECL reported to the CNSC and posted a bulletin on its public website regarding the presence of a small heavy-water leak, indicating that the reactor was safely shut down and that the leak posed no threat to workers, the public, the environment, or nuclear safety.

AECL also noted that the heavy-water leak rate was approximately five kilograms per hour and that virtually all heavy water was being captured and stored in drums. However, a small amount of that heavy water has evaporated and continues to evaporate, resulting in releases of tritium to the environment through the NRU ventilation system. These releases have been and remain well below CNSC regulatory limits and do not pose a risk to the health or safety of the public or our environment.

I would like to note that AECL demonstrated an adherence to good safety culture practices by keeping the NRU safely shut down until the source of the leak was identified. As AECL determines the course of future action regarding the leak, the CNSC will exercise our mandate and oversee AECL's activities, in the interest of protecting health, safety, and security of the public and our environment.

Turning toward the future of the NRU, CNSC and AECL have a formal protocol for the 2011 licensing of the NRU that defines the regulatory requirements, including a schedule of submissions. The first major submission from AECL will be an integrated safety review intended to identify the necessary improvements to the NRU to support an application for a further possible ten years of operation. This submission, planned for March 2010, will include a complete assessment of safety-related equipment and components in the NRU, including the reactor vessel. AECL will then submit an overall safety case for the re-licensing of the NRU in January 2011, and the commission will hold public hearings in the second half of the year to consider such an application.

In our previous appearance before you, both CNSC and AECL promised to review and improve the release of public information. This was demonstrated by the proactive information disclosure by both organizations about this current event.

AECL has continued to keep the CNSC, the government, and the public informed, throughout the investigation process and now as it prepares to respond. The CNSC has made available on our website all relevant information on the NRU going back to November 2007. Let me assure you, our interest is clear: making accurate information available as broadly as possible and as quickly as possible.

As per our regulations, this leak is a significant event, and as such it must be reported to the commission. Further, AECL is scheduled to appear before the commission on June 11, 2009, at a regularly scheduled public hearing. CNSC staff and AECL will present a significant development report to the commission at that time, including the most recent information on the NRU. That meeting will be broadcast on our public website. If members of this committee aren't able to make it to 280 Slater Street to attend the meeting in person, I encourage you to take it in virtually.

To conclude, the shortage of medical radioisotopes is obviously of great concern to Canadians. As far as the CNSC is concerned, the self-imposed safe shutdown and continued outage of NRU by AECL as a result of a heavy-water leak represents a strong adherence to good safety culture. CNSC is ready and able to consider any proposal for the safe return of operations of the NRU or any other isotope-producing facility.

Thank you.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you very much, Mr. Binder.

We'll go now directly to the questioning, to Mr. Regan for up to seven minutes.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Binder and Mr. Elder, for coming today.

Mr. Elder, were you here before?