Evidence of meeting #30 for Natural Resources in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was reactor.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you, Ms. Bennett, your time is up.
We go now to the Bloc Québécois and Monsieur Malo, for up to seven minutes.
5:25 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Malo Bloc Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Thanks to you as well, minister, for being with us this afternoon.
A little earlier you told us you had written to the federal ministers of Natural Resources and Health concerning potential compensation. Can you tell us when you did write and whether you got an answer? If so, what answers did you get?
5:25 p.m.
Minister of Health and Long-Term Care, Government of Ontario
Thank you very much.
I did write to the federal ministers. I wrote to Minister Raitt on May 25 about Chalk River going down. I wrote again to Minister Raitt on June 9, and I wrote to Minister Aglukkaq on June 19. The note on June 19 specifically outlined the 40% increase in prices that was anticipated at that point, as well as an additional 30% cost on the members of the Ontario Association of Nuclear Medicine. On August 4 I received a reply from Minister Aglukkaq, dated July 28, and I will quote from the letter:
I appreciate that you have concerns with respect to the rising cost of medical isotopes and the operating cost pressures associated with the shortage situation. The extent to which these price increases are due directly to the shutdown of the NRU is unclear. In fact, both Canada's primary distributors of TC-99m generators notified customers of impending price increases prior to the NRU shutdown in May.
The minister goes on to say:
Further study and analysis is required in order to understand the underlying causes and scale of price increases for TC-99m generators across Canada.
So I must admit I fail to see how there was a lack of understanding of the supply and demand dynamic. I think it is a fairly well understood economic theory that has stood the test of time for hundreds of years.
5:30 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Malo Bloc Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC
If I understand correctly, minister, you weren't reassured about potential compensation. Did you sense, in the ministers' responses, that the government was accepting its share of responsibility in the crisis and in the increased costs associated with short-term solutions?
5:30 p.m.
Minister of Health and Long-Term Care, Government of Ontario
That's a very good question.
There have been no assurances that the federal government will assume its share of costs. I was rather disheartened when I read one week ago in a Globe and Mail article that Ottawa's response contained no indication that such compensation would be forthcoming. There was a statement from Health Canada that said that “further study and analysis is required in order to understand the underlying cause and scale of price increases”.
I urge the federal government to recognize that this problem was caused by the federal government and it bears the responsibility for mitigating its fiscal impact.
5:30 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Malo Bloc Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC
Minister, we know that this crisis and the manner in which it is being addressed in the short term are putting additional pressure on staff in the hospital system. Could you tell us the current state—
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Monsieur Malo, I've been very patient here. I cautioned you and asked you to keep your questions within the parameters set out in the letter we received from the members of the opposition that gave the direction for this committee. You're straying outside of that. Ms. Bennett also strayed outside of that to some extent. I allowed both of you to go on, but please get back to questions that are better asked of the natural resources committee, rather than the health committee.
5:30 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Malo Bloc Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC
Mr. Chairman, we're talking to a minister of health. I think it is utterly illogical to think that we can talk about anything else than health with a minister of health. If you had wanted to convene anything else but a meeting to discuss the isotope crisis with a minister of health, you would have been in a position to do so. It seems to me it is entirely appropriate, in the context of this study, to ask the minister of health questions on his areas of jurisdiction and expertise as minister of health. If we don't do so, we are missing something important, don't you think?
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
It's the business of the health committee, not the natural resources committee.
On a point of order, Mr. Regan.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I asked for unanimous consent to allow Mr. Malo to ask whatever question he wants during his time.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
You can't do that on a point of order, Mr. Regan, and you know that.
Go ahead, Mr. Malo.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
Why can you not ask for unanimous consent on a point of order? Sure you can.
5:30 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Malo Bloc Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC
Minister, what would you like to talk to us about since I don't have the opportunity to talk to you about your area of expertise as minister of health? I would like to talk to you about hospital deficits or about the consequences they would have for other areas of hospital operations. I would like to talk to you about health care staff. We know that the NRU won't be in service before the spring of 2010 and that that will no doubt cause a shortage that will continue longer than you had anticipated. I would simply like to know how, with the staff in place and with patients' fears, you'll be able to respond appropriately to all those people.
5:35 p.m.
Minister of Health and Long-Term Care, Government of Ontario
Thank you, Monsieur Malo.
Time is a critical aspect of this. Imagine you are a cancer patient or their family and you are finding that you are having weeks of delay with simply having the diagnostic performed to be able to inform what the medical treatment would be. Of course, it backs up and means that the medical treatment itself is delayed. The effect upon health care providers is quite significant as well. Hospitals and diagnostic clinics are finding that they are having to have their staff work significant additional hours and have overtime. It is all connected to the timing of the reactors reactivating and also putting in place the plans, contingencies, and mitigation strategies to enable Ontario's, and I would imagine all Canadian provinces', health care patients and health care providers to be able to deal with this crisis.
As I mentioned earlier, one of the greatest disappointments has been that we had been advised that the timeline for reactivation was to be in the spring of this year. Later, it was the summer of this year. Now it is to be a further eight months from now. We require some certainty to be able to provide the medical diagnostic and medical procedures that Ontario cancer and cardiac patients do require. This is creating a tremendous impact on patients and their families and I don't think the federal government should operate independent of these considerations.
5:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you, Monsieur Malo.
I'm going to go to Mr. Julian, but I want to read the letter that was sent by five members of the opposition to the committee clerk, and this meeting is a result of that. I want to point out what the opposition asked, what you asked, for the committee to discuss. The last two questioners have been questioning outside the line of questioning that was directed by the opposition members themselves. Let's try to stick to the issue that we are here to discuss. Let's not get onto issues that are better dealt with by the health committee. Certainly if you want to take it to the health committee, you are welcome to do that.
I'm going to read this short letter again to remind members what this committee is here to deal with. This is what was asked for by the opposition.
We the undersigned members of the Standing Committee on Natural Resources request that a meeting of our Standing Committee be convened, pursuant to Standing Order 106(4), in order to study the prolonged closure of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited's NRU reactor at Chalk River, which has resulted in the decrease of supply of medical isotopes and a worsening health care crisis, as well as the future of isotope production in Canada.
I would ask that the members stick to the direction given by the five members of the opposition and also stick to the mandate of the natural resources committee. Again, the health committee, I understand, is going to deal with this issue again. That's great. They've dealt with it in the recent past.
Ms. Bennett, order, please. I've asked you not to speak over the chair when I'm making a statement that I believe is important for this committee to hear.
Now we will go to Mr. Julian's questions.
You have up to five minutes, Mr. Julian, on topic, please.
5:35 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciated your filibuster. I'm sure everyone else did as well.
I thank the health minister for being here, at least in spirit, certainly by telephone, to deal with the worsening health care crisis that is part of the committee's mandate.
I'd like to ask you this, Minister Caplan. You referenced two letters that went to the Minister of Natural Resources, one dated May 25 and the other dated June 9. Did you receive a reply to either of those letters?
5:40 p.m.
Minister of Health and Long-Term Care, Government of Ontario
Mr. Julian, thank you very much. I did receive a letter from Minister Raitton August 19. Minister Raitt outlined that she felt that the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care should be commended for the efforts we've had in coordinating and dealing with the current crisis, and she then went on to outline some work that she had commissioned in order to have AECL work on bringing the NRU safely back into operation as soon as possible.
5:40 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Thank you, Minister.
So in the midst of a huge medical crisis, it took three months for the minister to reply to a letter from you?
5:40 p.m.
Minister of Health and Long-Term Care, Government of Ontario
Mr. Julian, I wrote letters on May 25 and June 9 to Minister Raitt and received a reply on August 19.
5:40 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Yes, okay. Just for the record, it took three months to get a letter back. I think in the midst of a crisis one would suggest that is, to say the least, an undue delay.
You referenced as well the cost to the Ontario health care system: $1.7 million to hospitals, $1.4 million to the ministry itself. You stated that you believed costs would quadruple. What you're suggesting, essentially--and this would be a projection through to next spring--is that the cost to the health care system in Ontario would be about $12.5 million. Or would it be beyond that?
5:40 p.m.
Minister of Health and Long-Term Care, Government of Ontario
It is speculative and it is hard to estimate. For example, we know that the Dutch reactor has gone down for maintenance. We know that at one point the South African reactor went down as well.
If there is a disruption in the overall international supply, I think you would expect even greater impacts for the supply of medical isotopes in the supply-demand dynamic and for the costing of medical isotopes, and as this goes on for an extended period of time, there will be impacts on the extent of overtime, burnout, and the effects upon medical staff.
It is hard to predict and hard to project. I'm just using the best estimates that I've received from experts, both within the ministry and within our advisory, of a potential quadrupling if the current state is maintained.