Natural Resources Committee on March 18th, 2010

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Chair, well thank you for that caution, but we're going to be speaking directly to a specific budget line in the main estimates that you're studying at this committee, and I believe the minister is here to defend his estimates.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Absolutely, Mr. Martin.

Go ahead.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I don't see how it could be more topical or on topic or in order.

We've seen exposés by the CBC, the Globe and Mail, and Canwest News in recent months about the use of Canadian asbestos in India, because for years the Chrysotile Institute has been maintaining that Canadian asbestos can be handled safely around the world. We now know that's a lie. Yet the Canadian government sends teams of Department of Justice lawyers around the world like globe-trotting propagandists for the asbestos industry, to not only promote asbestos but to undermine the efforts of other countries to curb its use, sabotaging the Rotterdam Convention, and telling other countries that Quebec asbestos is safe. There is nothing benign or safe about Canadian asbestos.

I worked in the asbestos mines. They were lying to us about the health hazards of asbestos then and they continue to lie about it today. And you, Minister, as the MP for the asbestos region and the minister responsible for natural resources, which is subsidizing and promoting the asbestos industry, have a lot to answer for.

We are exporting human misery to other countries on a monumental scale, and the rest of the world is begging Canada to stop it.

Because we have such limited time, I would simply ask you...let me give you a quote from the Chrysotile Institute first. The Chrysotile Institute says that the Canadian Cancer Society, the World Health Organization, and the ILO are a bunch of...what is the term they use--en français, <les fous>. I don't understand the translation, but I think it means they're crazy and wacko.

Do you side with the international scientific community that says all asbestos should be banned, or do you side with the Chrysotile Institute and their phony research that tries to convince the world that asbestos can be used safely?

[Christian Paradis, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Mr. Martin, I have known your opinion on this issue for a long time. Besides, you defended it vigorously. However, someone can get tripped up by quoting studies left, right and centre. I could also quote other studies for you. I have about a dozen of them here and these studies do not date back to the 1960s, they stretch from 1979 to 2006. Thus, they are very recent. They show scientifically that there is a safe way of using chrysotile asbestos.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

There is only one study that says that. That's the one you paid for by Dr. Bernstein--

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Mr. Martin, order. You have had your say. The minister is answering your question. Please do not interrupt him. Be courteous enough to allow him a response. He was responding directly to your question.

Go ahead, please, Minister.

[Christian Paradis, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

I took some notes, Mr. Chair, and I will try to cover the points that were raised.

Yes, the position of our government, of the Canadian government, is based on a scientific position that recognizes the safe-use approach. The illnesses you mentioned are tragic and are caused by previous misuse. The fibres used were the amphibole fibres and you know as well as I do that they were misused. Today, there is a chrysotile fibre that can be used safely and whose biopersistence is less and much less harmful than the fibres that were used in the past. I am not telling you that the substance is not dangerous. It is a dangerous substance but we must manage the risks. Hazardous substances whose risks cannot be managed have been banned, as was amphibole asbestos.

Regarding the work done by Public Works, it is a blatant example of the misuse of sprayed asbestos. This is not encapsulated asbestos. Whether it be chrysotile asbestos or amphibole asbestos or any kind of asbestos, it is an example of unsafe use. This is why we are removing asbestos.

The objective for instituting chrysotile is not to grant millions of dollars of subsidies to the industry, but rather to have a common fund where each one contributes a third, namely industry, the Canadian government and the Quebec government. The money is handed over to the Chrysotile Institute which has the role, as is the case for all hazardous materials, of promoting safe use both here in Canada and abroad for clients and purchasing countries. The Chrysotile Institute is not seeking to put out propaganda or to do lobbying or anything of that sort. It seeks to promote safe use both at home and abroad.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Martin.

Mr. Harris, please, for up to seven minutes.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, welcome to the natural resources committee. We appreciate your input to us today.

In particular, Minister, being from a forest industry riding—a big one in this country—I appreciate the assistance the government has given to the forest industry, both from a softwood lumber point of view, and pulp and paper, with many of the short-term programs the government has introduced to help the industry through these very difficult times we have faced over the last three or four years, and then of course through the economic action plan, the few billions of dollars that have gone into the forest industry.

Madame Brunelle talked about the pulp and paper industry, the billion dollars, the green transformation program, which was a tremendous help. I have pulp mills in my riding that are right now building infrastructure to support green energy transformation in their operations. They have expressed appreciation to me, to pass on to you and our government, on how much they appreciate our government stepping up to the table to help in green energy, but also the assistance given through the work share program and the EI programs we've extended so they can hang onto their skilled employees.

Now I'm happy to say, as you know, there's a light shining a bit brighter on the horizon for the forest industry. The pulp market is enjoying some nice pricing these days, and the softwood lumber market is creeping up. I think the latest count is getting somewhere close to $290 per thousand. It's really appreciated. It's going higher, of course.

Minister, looking at the long-term picture, we need to ensure that the government is assisting to help secure the sustainability and the competitiveness in the forest industry in the future. One of those things, Minister, is the promotion of our products abroad. There have been new emerging markets, particularly China, and now we're looking at India, at the use of wood in construction. We know the China market for softwood is going to double this year, to somewhere in the neighbourhood of 3 billion board feet, which is just unheard of, but it's a huge asset. The government has put aside a lot of money for the promotion and marketing of our products overseas in softwood lumber.

Could you perhaps touch on that to give us assurance that the government's sights are still set on helping the emerging markets and our competitiveness abroad?

[Christian Paradis, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Yes, indeed. Thank you for your question.

My dear colleague, we had the opportunity of working together when I was a committee member with you.

We know that your area has been hit very hard by an infestation of the pine beetle. This is why, as early as 2007, considerable sums where invested in British Columbia and in Alberta to slow down this infestation and its eastward march.

Once again, this year, funds will be earmarked for this purpose. This means that they are included in the budget and that they will be paid out to help continue our efforts. We combine all this together with the community adjustment fund and the forestry trust fund that were announced in the previous budget. In this way, in your region of Canada, thanks to the government's efforts, we can give your region some infrastructure that will make it easier to harvest wood, to optimize its value and to slow down the progression of this infestation.

All these things are being done in compliance with the Softwood Lumber Agreement. You also mentioned that.

On softwood lumber, I would say that everywhere I go, I think the industry is quite clear and unanimous in saying “Don't touch that agreement, we need it. This is very important.” This is why we as a government have to be very careful and cautious to make sure we do respect our legal obligations. I think that nobody on the ground wants to see any positions being filled by the Americans. This is why we target the investments, to make sure they are effective but also compliant with the softwood lumber agreement.

That being said, there are two measures that were announced recently regarding black liquors. When you spoke about the market opportunities, there are two initiatives. There is the Canada wood export program, the North American wood first initiative, and the value to wood program. These are initiatives that were announced.

As you just pointed out, we know that China is a major focus of the Canada wood program. I want to point out that the exports to that market doubled last year. They doubled despite the global recession. I know these are emerging economies, so this is a good news story. This is why it is money wisely spent, because we always say that in the restructuring process the market issue is a challenge. So with these targeted expenses we have now doubled our exports in the last year. So it's worthwhile, and our government will continue working on these kinds of things.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Mr. Minister, I know there has been a Canada-Quebec program to provide joint funding to support silviculture in the province of Quebec. I'm interested to know a little bit about some of the things the funding is providing for in silviculture.

[Christian Paradis, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Once again the challenge is to make sure that we are compliant with the softwood lumber agreement. This is why we are sitting down with our counterparts, to make sure that we have wise investments but also compliant investments.

At one point we could see that we could help to build good infrastructure. We call it chemin multifonctionnel. So it is a major development for rural areas and it benefits not only the forestry sector but also the rural areas in general. This is why we sat down and wanted to identify how we could optimize our investment, to make sure we are compliant with the softwood lumber agreement and to help the community in general. It does also have effects on the forestry sector because it reduces costs of production, for sure, but it's always compliant with the softwood lumber agreement.

So this means we are identified by the province. Given the fact that the province has the entire jurisdiction of management of the territory, that is why we sat down with them and have partnerships with them and want to continue in that way to improve as best we can.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

We now go to the five-minute round, starting with the official opposition.

Mr. Bains, for up to five minutes. Go ahead.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Minister, welcome to committee.

My line of questioning is around the carbon capture, storage, and sequestration. I know there has been an allocation of roughly $1 billion over five years for this initiative. How much of that billion dollars has been invested, over the five years, so far?

[Christian Paradis, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

I have to point out first that we are in the early stages, and commitments are made and money is being invested now, at the early stages. If I recap, I have here that large-scale carbon capture and storage projects were announced in the fall of 2009, totalling up to $466 million from the fund. On October 8, $120 million was announced for the Quest CCS Project led by Shell Canada.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

I'm aware of the specific one. I just wanted to confirm that the total number is accurate.

I have a follow-up question to that. In terms of investments, how much are the provinces investments or any private sector investments, coupled with the federal investment? Are you aware of those numbers?

[Christian Paradis, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

It's about the leverage. I don't have them by heart, but I will....

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Again, that's fine.

It's because of the five minutes. I understand.

Can you share with the committee afterwards what the provinces have allocated to this initiative and whether there's any private investment as well, so we can get a total global number of how much has been invested in CCS from all three levels or all three sectors?

[Christian Paradis, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Sure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

The committee will get that information from the minister if he doesn't have it right now.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Yes, because we're....

[Christian Paradis, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

There is a high amount of leverage from the private sector and the provinces.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Yes, that's what I'm saying. It would just be nice to get that global number.

[Christian Paradis, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

I could say, roughly, that it's one-third, one-third, and one-third. That's a minimum. I will share it with the committee.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Great.

How many tonnes have been stored so far? Are you aware of that? Have you been tracking that data? This was allocated at the early stages, right?