Evidence of meeting #40 for Natural Resources in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was brunswick.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
I want to come back to royalties and maybe talk a little bit about the fiscal incentives regarding energy. Do you believe right now as an economist that we should invest more in R and D, instead of having those fiscal incentives? What would be the best, economically?
5 p.m.
Senior Economist, Global Resource Centre, Fraser Institute
You're referring to shale gas in particular?
5 p.m.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
Well, it can be shale, it can be oil sands, it can be unconventional.
5 p.m.
Senior Economist, Global Resource Centre, Fraser Institute
When you say “we invest”, do you mean government incentives?
5:05 p.m.
Senior Economist, Global Resource Centre, Fraser Institute
I don't think there's a role for government incentives. If, economically speaking, it should be developed, let the risk takers determine that.
5:05 p.m.
Senior Economist, Global Resource Centre, Fraser Institute
Yes. It's the government's role to set the framework, to ensure that if you want shale gas to go ahead, the royalties are competitive.
There will be, and there are, environmental concerns. If the government wants to have shale gas developed, then it's up to the government to determine that the people, the environment--
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
I have a problem understanding, for two reasons. First, of course, when we're talking about energy sufficiency, that's also about a kind of ownership, right? The bottom line of monitoring is that we need to, of course, enhance the quality of life; we need to protect the quality of life. We don't want to be at the mercy...so that other countries can suck it up.
It's also a transformation. How can we have a more balanced way of protecting people's wealth while at the same time being for free enterprise? There is a balance there, but I have a feeling what I'm hearing from you is that it's a free market, enjoy yourself, and that's it.
In the 1950s, Duplessis was good at that, with iron, but I'm not sure that's the way in the 21st century. We can have the same result without necessarily saying no government at all.
5:05 p.m.
Senior Economist, Global Resource Centre, Fraser Institute
Certainly, I wouldn't argue for no government at all. You need government. Governments have a role to play. But in terms of resource development, you have to listen to the people, to what's best for the people of Quebec and Canada, and have the regulations in place that are required.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Alan Tonks Liberal York South—Weston, ON
Minister Northrup, you've heard the concerns that have been raised by Professor Ingraffea. You undoubtedly will hear these concerns as you proceed in a more evidence-based way through what you've described as your EIA process.
Can you describe just a little more how that process differs from the environmental assessment process that conventionally we've been used to applying to these kinds of activities?
5:05 p.m.
Minister, Department of Natural Resources, Government of New Brunswick
As far as our EIA process goes, it involves social issues and different other issues. I guess as the industry grows, the EIA process will also grow. Obviously, this is a very difficult decision we have to make here, and we have to take it seriously, but I just can't emphasize enough that our number one concern is the water and the environment.
I can't emphasize enough too that as the industry grows and more wells are being put through--and I don't know about 10,000 wells in 10 years; Arkansas has had 3,000 wells in 10 years. I can't emphasize enough that we are taking this slowly. We're not jumping into this overnight. We want to take logical and technological advice to go down this path. It's not easy. It's day in and day out of getting things right. As I said before, we're not going to do this unless we're going to do it right. So we do take it seriously.
When you talk about royalties, we're talking about a three-phase royalty system whereby a royalty will go to the landowner, a royalty will go to the province, and a royalty will go to infrastructure around the area. We've been in informal talks with industry as far as royalty rates to the province, to the landowner, and to infrastructure go.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you, Mr. Tonks.
Mr. Anderson, go ahead for up to five minutes.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate it.
I might share my time with Mr. Hoback if I run out here.
Professor Ingraffea, I think it would be safe to say that you're not an unbiased participant in this discussion. If we go online, we see that you've been working on this issue politically for quite some time. Is that fair to say? From what I read of most of the presentations, when you've been giving them, they've been at political events, and then there has typically been an urge for the people who have attended them to write to their politicians to get them to ban unconventional drilling. Is that accurate?
5:10 p.m.
Dwight C. Baum Professor of Engineering, Cornell University, As an Individual
No, that's not accurate.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
This is more politics than science, I think. Is that accurate?
5:10 p.m.
Dwight C. Baum Professor of Engineering, Cornell University, As an Individual
No, not at all. I'm not a politician. I don't have any conflict of interest here. I'm not running for office; I don't hold office. I'm a professor at Cornell University and a licensed professional engineer. I have tremendous experience in oil and gas well development, hydraulic fracturing, pipeline safety.
So when I make presentations in public—some of which you have probably seen on the Internet—they're in public fora, they're not in political fora, and I never say to anybody that they should write anybody to say to stop something.
What I usually say—in fact what I always say in conclusion--is think, act, do what you think is right.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Typically, the people who have been organizing the functions you've appeared at seem to be pretty seriously--