Evidence of meeting #5 for Natural Resources in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was isotopes.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Cyrille Villeneuve  Vice-President and General Manager, International, Lantheus Medical Imaging
Eric Turcotte  Medical Specialist in Nuclear Medicine, Clinical Head of the Molecular Imaging Centre of Sherbrooke, As an Individual
William Dawes  Vice-President, Manufacturing and Supply Chain, Lantheus Medical Imaging
Daniel Banks  As an Individual
Tim Meyer  Head, Strategic Planning and Communications, TRIUMF
Gordon Tapp  As an Individual

10:50 a.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Mr. Chair, I want to split my time with Ms. Gallant a little bit later.

First of all, I think I can assure Mr. Ouellet, the committee, and Canadians that there's no equivalency between the minor risks involved in mining uranium and the tremendous benefits that we've all experienced from nuclear power production and the medical treatments related to uranium. He can be assured of that.

I have two questions that I want to ask, and then I'll turn it over to Ms. Gallant.

Mr. Meyer, I was going to ask you what the new future is, as I asked last hour, but you've clearly laid that out. What I would like to know is where the resistance is to the shift in technology. When things move from something that's been done for 40 or 50 years to a new technology, where's the resistance there? Could you talk about that for a couple of minutes?

I'll actually ask my second question at the same time. Can you explain to us how a PET scanner actually functions? I think there's been some interest around the table, from what I've heard. Can you lay out how it actually works for us?

10:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Go ahead, Mr. Meyer.

10:55 a.m.

Head, Strategic Planning and Communications, TRIUMF

Tim Meyer

Thank you. That's an excellent question.

There are philosophers of technology and science who will say that any true substitution for basic logistics takes generations, because those of us who grew up with one technology have to retire out of the workforce. I mean, retiring a steam engine in the coal-fired power plants certainly takes time. We've been working on the hydrogen highway for how many years? Hybrid cars are part of that bridge.

So I just want to point out that the resistance to moving from technetium-based SPECT technology, which I will define in a moment, toward the next generation of PET technology is not bottlenecked with any particular element of the business practice or the clinical practice. It's really the precautionary movements about the medical community and the regulatory bodies, which are serving the best interest of Canadians.

What we're saying is that we are at that cusp where the future technology is going to become the predominant element. The challenge with PET technology, as we've heard from the previous experts, is that right now it's twice as expensive to obtain the imaging equipment in the clinic. That's a challenge for health care systems that have burgeoning costs. However, the payoffs of using that technology would be tens of thousands of dollars per patient if fully implemented. That's where it takes these cancer care delivery agencies in Quebec and British Columbia and some of the other provinces to really push the envelope.

Other challenges within the medical community are establishing the correct basis for prescribing the new types of scans. Doctors like Sandy McEwan at Cross Cancer Institute are some of the pioneers in that area of looking at how to integrate that fully into the clinical practice.

My view is that resistance is really.... It took me a long time to learn how to program my VCR. That's both my fault and the fault of Sony and Panasonic for having complicated instruction manuals. But now I do it from the web.

The second point is how a PET scanner actually works, and whether that influences this resistance in adopting the new technology.

As I said, there are physics, chemistry, and biology here, and the basic difference here is in the physics. When we talk about a medical isotope, we're talking about an unstable, or some would say a radioactive, atom. There's a nucleus, and it decays by emitting a particle. In the technetium-based imaging products, we have a nucleus that decays and emits a photon, which is a small particle of light that exits the body and can be picked up by a camera.

In PET isotopes, “P” is for positron. When a PET isotope decays, it emits a piece of antimatter. It's an anti-electron. When that anti-electron annihilates, as we all know from Star Trek and Angels and Demons--Tom Hanks has not yet come to TRIUMF--matter and antimatter annihilate. When that positron meets its neighbouring electron within a few micrometres, it annihilates and what's emitted are two photons. So already the physics is different. One medical isotope of technetium gives you one photon; one medical isotope of a PET isotope gives you two photons.

Now, there's an advantage there, which is twice the count rate, but also some physics governs the emission of those photons, so you have a lot more information about the geometry of where was that medical isotope.

That's the basis of scanning. It's identifying where is the medical isotope.

10:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

You have two and a half minutes.

10:55 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and through you to our witnesses.

I was most interested in hearing how the project through CREATE and the TRIUMF project are more complementary than in competition. Now I better understand that TRIUMF's focus is the medical community, whereas the multi-purpose reactor, yes, it can make isotopes—it was never intended to—and does it very well, but it also services the nuclear industry as well as material science. It was through that general science that we spun off a whole new industry, which is spinning off the different science we're seeing at TRIUMF, not only in aeronautics, but we've seen bubble technologies, all the jobs there, as well as the new materials that will give rise to the yet unanticipated jobs of the future.

There seems to be a tendency for people to be distracted by the unproven technologies like the MAPLEs. Have you seen this business model? You're talking more than just about a multi-purpose reactor from the CREATE standpoint. You're talking about an entire national laboratory with that as the first piece of the puzzle, so to speak. We did have the particle accelerator, but that was left by the wayside and would have complemented it. Have you seen the model in existence, and if so, can you tell us whether or not it's successful and how it's working?

11 a.m.

As an Individual

Daniel Banks

When we were considering the model we propose, we did look at some other facilities. Gord was actually able to go down to visit Oak Ridge recently.

One of the models we looked at, the Canadian Neutron Beam Centre at Chalk River,was actually on a smaller scale. It is an exception to Chalk River as a whole. The Canadian Neutron Beam Centre is operated by the National Research Council as opposed to AECL, so understandably it has a different mission. Its mission is to be a national science facility.

The model there is roughly 60% in direct support from the National Research Council and 40% revenue. That revenue comes from two streams. One is from industry, because industry pays cost-recovery fees for access to the neutron beams to get information about the industrial components they need for their businesses. It could be an airplane turbine. It could be steel that's going to be used in bridges. The Challenger space shuttle is a famous example. They sent a piece of that to Chalk River for analysis.

In addition to revenue from industry for proprietary research, there is academic research. NSERC pays a significant portion, as well, to maintain the facility in a state of readiness for access by scientists from universities all across Canada. External sources, such as universities and industry and other government research programs, use 80% of the beam time.

Scaling that up to Chalk River, we think that the 60:40 model is probably still reasonable. There would be a heavy weight toward the industrial side of that revenue. As an example, a representative of AREVA testified at this committee not too long ago. I remember him saying that they spent $1.2 billion last year alone on research and development. The nuclear research and development market is a big area. Opening the lab to business from other industries, besides the current CANDU business of AECL, could certainly generate a lot of revenue.

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Dr. Banks.

Thank you, Ms. Gallant.

Just before the members leave, we have the budget for paying witnesses' expenses to approve. If you could just hang around, it should literally take a few seconds, I would assume.

I'd like to thank Mr. Meyer, Mr. Tapp, and Dr. Banks for being here today. We appreciate your input very much. It's very helpful to the study.

I will now bring the budget before the committee.

Yes, Mr. Regan.

11 a.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Maybe after that, can we also find out who we have as witnesses on Tuesday?

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Sure.

11 a.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Thank you.

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

The budget is for $15,950 for witnesses' expenses for this study we're working on right now. Is there agreement to pass this budget?

11 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

The witnesses for next Tuesday that have been approved are Peter Goodhand--I'm not sure where he's from--Philippe Hebert from Covidien; and Hugh MacDiarmid from AECL.

Go ahead, Mr. Anderson.

11 a.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Can I just make a point? I think we have asked every witness who was put forward, with the exception of two people from the expert review panel. We asked the chair, and I think the other person was an alternate. Everybody has been asked. Some people have declined. Some of the companies have declined. We've done the best we could.

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

We have....

11 a.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Surely it's the chair and the clerk who do this, not the PS.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

It is.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Thank you.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

We have asked all the witnesses.

Of course, I keep in touch with members on the government side as well.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

As well--in addition to members on the opposition side, I'm sure.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Absolutely.

Thank you all very much.

We'll see you on Tuesday.

The meeting is adjourned.