Natural Resources Committee on Dec. 7th, 2011

[Brennain Lloyd]

There are a number of things that should have happened before we ever got to this point, and they certainly need to happen now.

One is that there needs to be a land use planning process led by the Matawa first nations, resulting in a land use plan and a land use strategy, including an industrial, developmental, and economic strategy, for that region—which is owned by the Matawa first nations and the people who are resident in that area.

The second thing that needs to happen is we need to have a very considered approach to how the projects in that area are going to be evaluated, how they're going to be assessed for social, economic, and environmental benefits, as well as dis-benefits, and particularly cumulative effects.

We have the Minister of Northern Development and Mines identifying 35 sets, major players in the area. There are 10 major projects identified to date. There are comprehensive studies announced for two of those, one by one of the major players, Cliffs Natural Resources, and the other by the other major player, Noront.

They are both moving forward right now with very limited studies; basically it's an exchange of papers. It's a very limited review. It doesn't allow the testing and the examination of the proposal in the way a panel review would, a review with a hearing, and there are some pretty obvious problems with this. Noront is proposing an east-west transportation route out. Cliffs is proposing a north-south. We have remote area that could then be accessed by two different transportation corridors, which will have even more significant impacts in terms of community, environment, wildlife populations, and so on.

We really need an integrated approach, a planning approach, and an environmental assessment is—when done well—a planning tool. For it to be done well, we need an integrated environmental assessment that looks at all of the projects over time, and looks at all of the consequences of these projects.

[Claude Gravelle, NDP, Nickel Belt, ON]

A couple of weeks ago we had the minister here at our committee, and he said he would like to streamline the regulatory reviews—as in one project, one review. Can you tell us what impact taking too many shortcuts might have?

[Brennain Lloyd]

Yes. Taking too many shortcuts means you don't have a complete review. It means you have a narrow subset of a review where you look at some of the issues. For example, we've just completed a comprehensive study of the Detour Lake Gold Mine re-opening. It has been a paper exchange. There have been a number of open houses where people can go in and look at posters and ask questions on a one-to-one basis, but you don't have the opportunity to really evaluate the project and require a full examination of the alternatives. What are the alternatives of running the project for 16 years at 60,000 tonnes versus 30 years at 25,000 tonnes per day—for community benefits, for managing environmental impacts? You really need a coordinated approach.

In the Ontario permitting process, we have permitting documents that contradict each other going in—one to the ministry of Northern Development and Mines and one to the Ministry of the Environment—and they're describing the same project differently. So I completely support a coordinated approach, but if “streamlined” means “shortcut”, then it does a disservice on all counts.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Gravelle.

Mr. McGuinty, go ahead, please.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and my thanks to Ms. Lloyd and Madame Derome for their testimony.

Ms. Lloyd, you said, and I'm paraphrasing, that sustainable development should be the critical overlay for all of the mining activities being contemplated in our northern study. You went on to talk about some of the challenges inherent in this notion of sustainable development, which I appreciate.

Madame Derome, in your brief, you conclude by saying that Canada should have a balanced approach and that the environment should be protected for future generations. In fact, you pretty much finish up your entire presentation on that note.

Now, I want to go back to something I've been looking for, for a while now, in this study. Just two hours ago, the government said in response to questions on the floor of the House that there was a sector-by-sector response, a regulatory sector-by-sector response, to climate change. After all, we are now dealing with the situation in Durban. Madame Derome, as the Yukon Chamber of Mines representative, have you seen a plan for your sector for reducing greenhouse gases, a plan containing effects on anticipated projects?

[Claire Derome]

We come from a very low base in greenhouse gas emissions. In 2004 there was absolutely no industrial activity, so we're starting from a base that is going to expand our greenhouse gas production, if we put more operations on line. So that's a fact, and our industry is conscious of this and so is the Yukon government.

Most of the greenhouse gas generation is going to come from energy production. The solution is to make sure we have access to what we would call renewable or greener sources of energy in sufficient form. Eighty per cent of the energy in the Yukon is generated by hydro projects, which are a legacy of older mines that were in production in the past. But we've now reached the capacity of those facilities. To bring us to the next level, we'll need some investment in other hydro projects or in our own natural gas sources in the Yukon. So I think there is an understanding that while we will need more energy, we will also need to be careful about what kinds of energy sources we're going to be using.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Madame Derome, I'm not trying to put you on the spot. In the opposition, we're trying to find out what your plan looks like. Do you have a plan? Does the Yukon Chamber of Mines have a plan, in cooperation with the federal government and the territory, to deal with greenhouse gases arising from the expansion of mining activities? Do you have such a plan in your possession?

We're being told over and over again by our national government that there is a sector-by-sector regulated approach to reducing greenhouse gases. Have you seen that sector plan for the mining sector, inasmuch as it affects the Yukon?

[Claire Derome]

In Yukon we're working in a more integrated fashion. The Yukon government has a plan for greenhouse gases and is conducting consultations with all sectors. We are involved in that, and others are involved as well.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Have you seen the federal plan?

[Claire Derome]

I've seen the Yukon plan.

The plan for greenhouse gases has been developed by the Yukon government. It falls under the guidance and policy provided by the federal government. So there is a plan that is currently being developed.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Good. So the Yukon plan is part of the national plan.

[Claire Derome]

It will certainly fit under the guidance provided at the national level. I don't want to go beyond that because I'm not an expert in that area. But I can tell you that there is a plan.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Ms. Lloyd, can you help us understand? You are in the mining sector. You've talked about the importance of sustainable development and the critical overlay of making sure we address greenhouse gases. You used the words “climate change”.

Have you seen the sector plan for the mining sector for Canada—a regulated plan that talks about targets, numbers, anticipated growth, reduction strategies, and fiscal incentives? Do you have a plan in your possession? Have you seen one?

[Brennain Lloyd]

I haven't seen such a plan or heard reference to such a plan, other than what you've just shared today. Most of the discussion I've heard in the mining sector has been around the effects of climate change on mining operations versus the contribution of mining operations to climate change.

I'll add that as part of the electricity planning process it has been noted that in Ontario there is no requirement for the mining sector to actually develop energy efficiency and energy conservation plans in the same way they are required in the commercial sector or other industrial sectors. To me it's a signal that at the provincial and federal levels there's a lot to be done in how we look at the contributions of this sector to greenhouse gas emissions and climate change.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

What is my time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

You have a minute.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Madame Derome, can you help us understand? I've been looking at the question of ownership and the participation of first nations peoples.

Yukon has a very high preponderance of settled land claims. There are only a few outstanding that are working their way through the system.

Is there an attitude or culture in Yukon where first nations are going to become equity participants—owners of major mining projects as they go forward, as opposed to simply employees or subcontractors with small companies providing back-stopping in trucking or kitchen facilities?

You're the only territory or province I know that has a body that talks about socio-economic negotiations. How far along is this in Yukon?

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Ms. Derome, go ahead.

[Claire Derome]

I'm not the expert on everything, but I'll give you my view on where I think things are today.

Each first nation has a development corporation that is very active, and some have been active for quite some time. For example, I don't know if you know of Air North. Air North is our Yukon airline and it's 49% owned by the Vuntut Development Corporation. That was one of their first significant investments.

The Vuntut Gwitchin First Nation in Old Crow is the only community that is not road accessible. They made that investment initially to make sure they would have good service going to their community. It has been very successful for them.

All of the mines currently in operation have concluded comprehensive impact and benefit agreements with first nations in the traditional territories in which they are located. First nations, through their settlement agreements, in some of their category A lands, own the mineral resources, not only the surface resources. So the first mine that was developed in Yukon, the Minto Mine, is located on category A land, and all the royalties payable under the Quartz Mining Act are transferred directly to the first nation.

In the other cases there are agreements between Canada, Yukon, and first nations on sharing those royalties. So when royalties are payable under the Quartz Mining Act, a portion of them is redistributed to the Yukon government and the first nation.

This is something on which our industry, first nations, and the Yukon government are currently in discussions with the federal government. There is a very low cap on those royalties, and it will need to be lifted if we really want to have a broader distribution of the resource royalties that will come from our industry.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Ms. Derome.

[Claire Derome]

I don't know if this answers your question, but yes, there is a lot of participation at various levels from first nations, not only in employment...because we don't have enough people, as some of you noted before, to fill all of these positions. So first nations are really looking to be involved in different kinds of businesses and concepts of business.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you.

The bells have just started. By the time we go to vote, I don't think there will be any real time to come back here.

We might have five minutes.

[Claude Gravelle, NDP, Nickel Belt, ON]

Can we keep going for another 15 minutes?

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

We can't go for 15. How about we have just one five-minute round on each side?

Is that agreed? Okay.

Mr. Calkins, five minutes, and I will cut the answer or the question off.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll try not to filibuster myself.

Madam Derome, I was very intrigued by your presentation. My first question to you pertains to the rail line.

This comes on page 7 in the English version that I have in front of me. It starts at the very last paragraph, where you say that critical to the Yukon is continuing access to the port of Skagway, an ice-free, year-round facility. At the bottom of that paragraph you have written that to accommodate the increase in production and in resupply it requires a large investment in the Skagway ore handling capacity, and that there is a potential to revive the historical rail link between Skagway and Whitehorse.

Can you tell me a little bit more about this? Can you elaborate? Do you have more information to offer? How realistic is this? Who is interested in reviving this? Who is driving the potential for this to happen? What's the realistic potential of this?