Natural Resources Committee on Feb. 14th, 2012

[William Boor]

I don't want to speak specifically about which municipalities are in the running at this point or not. Sudbury was identified as a base case because it is technically viable. There are other municipalities that are involved.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Okay. That's as much of an answer as I'm going to get out of you.

[William Boor]

You wanted it to be quick too.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I'm very pleased that a lot has been mentioned about training and apprenticeship.

Over the last number of years, northern Ontario chiefs have told me they don't sign contracts for labour that lasts a year or more during a construction phase, meaning the long-term jobs and particularly the ones with mobility. When they're talking about trades and apprenticeships, they are talking about first nations people having the opportunity to get tickets, so that if they are electricians or plumbers, they are a mobile workforce and can move. They would still have a home community, but they would work throughout northern Ontario and perhaps all of Canada.

The mining association has raised a concern about the ending of the aboriginal skills employment partnership program. Since 2003 more than 18,000 aboriginal people have been trained under that program. The funding is running out this year, and the government has not renewed support for this program. What will the impact be on you and your organization in terms of training?

[William Boor]

Obviously, from my perspective losing any program that facilitates that kind of training would have a negative impact.

What we need to do first is work with the communities that are affected to develop the training plans that we want to execute. That's what I commented on earlier, saying I think we're a little late in doing that and that I would like to see it go faster. Once we figure out the specifics of these plans, then having access to those sorts of programs is very important.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Deputy Grand Chief, just to keep you in the loop, you mentioned training and apprenticeships in your opening statement. I wonder if you have any thoughts on this, in particular with regard to the ability to work with organizations like the construction trades or IBEW and having aboriginal people being trained and acquiring professional qualifications that would allow them to be mobile.

[Deputy Grand Chief Les Louttit]

Thank you, Mr. Rafferty.

I would like to talk about the example of De Beers' Victor Mine in Attawapiskat First Nation. As part of the IBA negotiations, there was a requirement to construct a training facility in the village of Attawapiskat, which they did. By the time it was built and there had been several intakes for the construction and skilled labour, the construction period was over, so those trainees were not able to benefit from the construction of the mine.

Then they switched over to training the processing plant workers at the mine site. Several intakes of processing workers were trained; they had to compete with other skilled and experienced processing workers from other mining developments in Canada, so the net effect was that it was too little, too late. The training facility should have been built earlier, as indicated here earlier. We need to get people ready for when the mine is constructed four or five years from now. We need to have facilities built now. I know that a couple of chiefs in the area indicated they would like to have such a facility.

Now there is a facility in Attawapiskat that remains closed. I was there a week ago, and there was no training going on at all. That could be used as one potential training site.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you, Deputy Grand Chief.

I have one last question for Mr. Coombes. What is your understanding of treaty rights and traditional lands? Do you have any comments either on behalf of your company or yourself?

[Ronald Coombes]

You know, in the last five years in particular the bar has shifted, and I don't understand it anymore. We thought we understood. We need some direction from the Canadian government to understand exactly.... Our thought on the duty to consult, for instance, was employing people at the early stages and giving them the understanding of what is going on.

In our project in British Columbia, we've had no difficulties whatsoever. We've hired first nations. We use them as dispatching for employment purposes, etc. We’ve consulted, we've completed an MOU with them, and we've completed the traditional knowledge protocol, but the bar has been shifting to a point where I'm starting to wonder what our legal rights are as an exploration company, for instance.

We're working on crown land. At every avenue and whenever possible, we're trying our best to employ aboriginal communities wherever they are within our exploration projects. What I'm seeing right now disturbs me. It really does disturb me, because once again, we're looking for financing from abroad for our public companies, so we have to explain to shareholders where the money is going, and having to deal with some of the issues we're dealing with really puts us in a bit of a bind as a public company. They're political issues, not the business issues that we should be dealing with.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Rafferty.

We go now to Mr. Trost, followed by Mr. Stewart.

Go ahead please, Mr. Trost.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question is to Mr. Ferris. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this would be my summary of your position and the problem you're having: your communities have a capacity problem in the ability to fully interact in the environmental assessment and related issues. They don't have the ability to quickly respond and to understand what is being done.

Would that be a fair assessment of your position? You're open to engaging, but the ability to absorb and respond and to transmit and communicate your needs is lacking.

[Raymond Ferris]

That's exactly right. There isn't sufficient time to respond to the comprehensive study review process currently being approved.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Thank you. To Mr. Coombes, then, in the reverse; would you also agree that there is a lack of capacity to understand the process from the other side?

I think of some of the stuff you were talking about. I remember reading that one of the first nations groups in Saskatchewan asked for royalties on the exploration phase. They weren't trying to be funny, but they didn’t understand the royalties on the exploration phase.

Is it your experience that many of the local people don't have a full understanding of the industry and the benefits, and also the processes that go with the benefits?

[Ronald Coombes]

That's correct.

I think that if they understood the impact and what is involved in the financing of projects, they'd understand that once we actually know that something of economic value is there, the bar changes. As soon as you know there something of economic value, the bar changes, and you have to start looking at participation agreements, etc. I know that we've helped on our project in northern B.C., where we know that there is a deposit, but you're right: I think there is a lack of understanding of the cost, the risk, and the reward.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

We go back to Mr. Ferris.

You were noting that there is a 90% unemployment rate in the jurisdiction that you represent. When you say that, it brings to mind some of the communities I worked in as an exploration geophysicist.

It reminded me that a lot of the people who had the best skills tended to move on. Let me ask where the education bottleneck is. If these jobs do come, who is going to get them? Are you going to have people who are part of the 90% unable to take these jobs because they don't have proper high school education? You referred to some of your community members who have struggles with the English language. I'm assuming they'd be more the elderly, but perhaps not. Where is the education need the most acute, to prepare your community for the potential of economic growth?

[Raymond Ferris]

This is where the agreements need to be in place, even during the exploration phase.

Maybe there are some people just looking for funds, but the funds they're looking for have to come from somewhere. We need to deal with this.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Even if you get the funds, what are you looking for?

I remember talking with one first nations representative in Saskatchewan who told me that a real problem is grade 5. People are dropping out at grade 5, and we can't get them to high school, and from high school to the trade schools and universities. Is that part of the community problem too? People who have good job skills and a 90% unemployment rate are headed south to Thunder Bay, to Toronto, to somewhere else.

[Raymond Ferris]

Yes.

What I was getting at was that in the province of Ontario and Canada...our schools are not on par with the provincial levels. We only get half the funding of what the provincial levels get.

If one of our people is in grade 8, when they go to a provincial school, their level is right down to about grade 4 because of that discrepancy. We feel this is why the agreements are very important, so that when the EA—

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Very good. I got you there, but I have only a few seconds left.

My final question is this: if this infrastructure does get in place, is there potential for industries other than mining to spin off, industries that could potentially bring in a wider group of people to be employed? Do you see that potential in your area, Mr. Ferris?

[Raymond Ferris]

Yes, we do.

We talked about the infrastructure. We talked about the transmission corridors, and by the way, if the smelter or the furnace is brought into our area, it has the potential to justify electrification in our communities. This is why we're going to stand our ground and say that we're going to have this furnace in our area. It's because this is one of the opportunities. Accommodation is part of what the courts have told the governments. There needs to be accommodation, and accommodation will come. Some of it will come in the form of electrifying our communities.

The furnace is what's going to provide this huge opportunity for the first nations, and not only that: we're not involved with just our own nine first nations, but also with the Lake Nipigon chiefs of several other communities. We're working together to allow these solutions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Okay, thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Trost.

We'll go to Mr. Stewart for up to five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

When I look at the wealth of experience around this room and around this table concerning this area, I see Mr. Gravelle, Mr. Rafferty, Mr. Hyer, Dr. Trost. I am reassured to see that we have the right people here in the room to consider this issue. That reassures me.

My background is really on public consultation, public participation, and policy-making. The key idea that we look at in this area is reasonableness. It's really the key concept of any idea of fairness or justice. I can't help thinking about how this conversation would go if the positions were reversed--if first nations, for example, were planning a giant mining development right beside Mr. Boor's or Mr. Coombes' home, or their parents' homes, or their children's homes.

How would we think of this if we applied the idea of reasonableness? How perhaps might we be looking at this slightly differently? We'd have different conversations.

Mr. Ferris and Mr. Louttit, I am thinking of this idea of reasonableness. If you succeeded in obtaining a joint review panel--let's say that happens through your court action--what would you tell this panel are potential positive and negative impacts of the project, in this view? If you had your chance to get in front of the panel, what would you say are the positive and negative impacts?

[Raymond Ferris]

One of the first things I would say is that the first nations people have lived in this area for thousands of years and that we are part of the environment. The environmental assessment shouldn't take into account an approval process just for a mine to go ahead, but it should take into account our people, who have lived on and worked these lands.

We have an economy there, whether people believe it or not. To be removed from that site is something that we're not going to stand for anymore. For example, our language in the southern part of this region is getting lost, so this is going to happen at the same time.

How is that going to be compensated for? What kind of mitigation measures need to be put in place? This is why this environmental assessment is very important for us. We need to have our people be able to say their piece, address their concerns, and see how any of their concerns are going to be mitigated through a process. The comprehensive study review will not allow that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Go ahead, Mr. Louttit.

[Deputy Grand Chief Les Louttit]

I want to comment on Mr. Boor's admission that he lacked the knowledge of aboriginal treaty rights. I would assure him that if a joint review panel process was in place, he would have ample opportunity to hear from the people themselves who live off the land in the territories in which this mining development is taking place. He would come out of there with a good understanding of their needs and the impacts on their aboriginal treaty rights. I support what Mr. Ferris is saying here. This is a good opportunity for all parties to benefit.