Natural Resources Committee on Feb. 14th, 2012

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

I call the meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we're here today to continue our study on resource development in northern Canada. Actually, in the two meetings this week we're dealing with the Ring of Fire.

We have a number of witnesses today. From Cliffs Natural Resources Incorporated, we have William Boor, senior vice-president, Global Ferroalloys; welcome. From White Tiger Mining Corporation, we have Ronald Coombes, president; welcome. From Matawa First Nations, we have Raymond Ferris, coordinator, Ring of Fire; welcome. From the Nishnawbe Aski Nation, we have Deputy Grand Chief Les Louttit; welcome to you, sir.

Thank you all for coming today and for contributing to our study on resource development in the north. We'll go right to the presentations in the order you're listed on the agenda. We will start with Cliffs Natural Resources Incorporated, represented by William Boor, senior vice-president from Global Ferroalloys.

Go ahead, please, sir, with your presentation.

[William Boor, Senior Vice-President, Global Ferroalloys, Cliffs Natural Resources Inc.]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and distinguished members. Good morning, my fellow witnesses.

My name is Bill Boor. I'm the senior vice-president of Global Ferroalloys. My role includes responsibility for all aspects of the proposed Cliffs chromite project in the Ring of Fire. Cliffs Natural Resources very much appreciates the opportunity to appear today as part of your study.

In my remarks I would like to briefly tell you about our company, provide an overview of our proposed project, and outline the key opportunities and challenges in developing a mining project in the Ring of Fire.

First let me tell you about our company. Cliffs Natural Resources is a 164-year-old international mining and natural resources company headquartered in Cleveland, Ohio, and we have a long history of operating in Canada. We have been in Canada since 1961, and we have owned and operated mines and processing facilities in Ontario, Quebec, and Labrador. Today we employ over 1,000 Canadians.

Our business is built around our core values of social, environmental, and capital stewardship, and we strive to provide operating and financial transparency to our stakeholders. We are the largest producer of iron ore pellets in North America, a major supplier of direct-shipping lump and fines iron ore out of Australia, and a significant producer of high and low volatile metallurgical coal. Our strategy is to continue to serve the world's largest and fastest-growing steel markets.

Last year we completed the $5 billion acquisition of Consolidated Thompson, giving us operating control of the Bloom Lake iron ore mine located in Fermont, Quebec. In the near future we plan to invest approximately $1 billion to expand these operations. Canada holds an important place in our company's strategy and represents the bulk of our company's recent and future investments.

Now I'd like to tell you about our proposed project in the Ring of Fire. In late 2008 we began working with exploration companies in the region, supporting them both technically and financially. This led to the acquisitions of Freewest Resources and Spider Resources in 2010, which is when we began studying the proposed chromite project in the Ring of Fire.

Our proposed project has four components. The first component is a mine that would produce over 4 million tonnes per year of chromite ore.

The second is a processing plant that would be located at the mine site to produce a concentrate product for direct sale or for conversion to ferrochrome. Together the mining concentrator would create approximately 400 permanent jobs.

The third component is an all-season road to transport the concentrate to the CN rail line at Nakina. As I will mention in a few minutes, while our project would be the catalyst for this Ontario infrastructure, in a larger sense this road would serve to open up the Ring of Fire to further investment by other mining companies. The transportation corridor would create approximately 300 permanent jobs.

The fourth component would be a ferrochrome production facility to refine approximately 60% of the concentrated chromite ore into ferrochrome, which is used in the production of stainless steel. We have not yet decided on the location of this furnace operation, but we do know that it will be in Canada. This facility would create approximately 450 jobs.

In total this project would represent an investment of approximately $3.5 billion, create over 1,100 permanent jobs, an equal number of construction jobs, and 2,000 to 3,000 indirect jobs. Importantly, this project has the scale to assist with the infrastructure that would open up the Ring of Fire to further mining development by other companies.

We are very excited about the potential of our proposed chromite project, but the project is just that: proposed. It is not yet a certainty. The environmental and community impacts need to be assessed, and Cliffs also needs to continue assessing the project's viability by looking at both its technical and commercial potential.

With respect to the environmental assessment process, which began last year, we are committed to a thorough and rigorous process, which is why Cliffs volunteered to conduct an individual Ontario environmental assessment. The federal and provincial processes are being carried out as a single coordinated process. We are committed to doing the environmental assessment right.

We have been communicating, consulting, providing capacity funding, and working directly with directly affected first nation communities in the Ring of Fire since early 2010, when we made the acquisition that began our involvement in this project.

We will continue this work. As part of our definition of success for the project, and beyond any legal requirements, Cliffs is committed to seeing the first nations participate and benefit, assuming the project proceeds. Ultimately we view the first nations as our partners in this development, and their benefits would include training, employment, capacity-building, business opportunities, social funding, and increased year-round access.

Now I'd like to tell you about the opportunities and challenges in developing a project like ours in the Ring of Fire.

The key challenges are the result of global market conditions and the lack of existing infrastructure. While we are certainly optimistic about the global demand for chromite and ferrochrome, it would be fair to say that the market is extremely volatile and that this project is aggressive in its market outlook. Global developments, such as Chinese demand, heavily influence the economics and stability of this operation.

These global conditions mean that Cliffs has to be very mindful of all of the upfront investment and the ongoing operating costs of the project, and we have to work hard to keep these costs as competitive as possible. The quality and stability of the jobs are dependent on our ability to develop a low-cost project that can compete with established world competitors.

Our proposed project includes exporting approximately 40% of the product produced on site. Being able to sell into the global market for chromite concentrate is key to being able to build a mine, concentrator, and ferrochrome facility on the scale we are proposing, and 60% of the mine's production will be shipped to the furnace operation.

We recognize that a number of communities would like to see this facility built in their region. We have not yet made a decision about where this facility should be located. Our decision will be based on what is best for the project as a whole—that is, what best supports the project's chances of proceeding as planned. I'm pleased to say, though, that this facility will be in Canada.

As we are all aware, the Ring of Fire location has significant potential for a range of minerals, but the single biggest challenge facing the region's development is its remoteness and lack of existing infrastructure. To make this project a reality and to open up the Ring of Fire for further development by other mining companies, significant transportation investment is needed. We have studied many routes and modes of transportation, and have concluded that an all-weather road running north from Nakina will make the most sense from the short- and long-term economic standpoints.

In addition to opening up the region, the all-weather road would provide connection opportunities for remote first nation communities. It's important that we get this route right, because there will be substantial construction costs in the range of $500 million. The ongoing transportation and maintenance costs that will be determined by the choice of route will be a major determiner of global cost competitiveness for the entire region.

In summary, we at Cliffs are very excited about our existing presence in Canada and the potential of our proposed projects, but this project is still in the early stages. We need to continue to work on our environmental assessment with all of our stakeholders and the affected first nation communities, and we must determine how to keep the project infrastructure costs as low as possible so that the project can proceed at the proposed scale.

Cliffs plans to be involved in the Ring of Fire for a long time, with a multi-generational operation. With this mindset, we're committed to working with the local communities to do it right, as we do in all of our operations. This project appears to fit with our strategy, and also has the potential to make a real difference in the local communities, which is important to us as well.

Thank you for your time, and I look forward to taking your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Boor.

We will now go to Ronald Coombes, president of White Tiger Mining Corporation.

[Ronald Coombes, President, White Tiger Mining Corp.]

I would like to thank you all for the opportunity to speak here today.

My name is Ron Coombes. Here's a little of my history: on both sides of my family tree I'm a fourth-generation Canadian, and I'm very proud to be a Canadian.

I represent the Waterfront Mining Group of public companies, as president and CEO. We have an office in Thunder Bay, and our main office is in West Vancouver, British Columbia. I've been involved at the executive level in Canadian mining exploration for the past 18 years.

Within our group of companies, we have a major open-pit molybdenum deposit located in northern British Columbia and numerous other exploration projects at various stages of exploration and development in Ontario, British Columbia, and Labrador. Our senior advisers have been in the exploration and mine development business since the early 1960s, and our focus is to explore here in Canada.

Exploration for minerals creates opportunities for high-paying jobs and other forms of indirect opportunity, such as environmental, food, fuel, and supply contracts. These are just a few of the associated benefits available to all local community people.

The policy throughout the mining industry is to retain qualified persons within the communities nearest to exploration projects. This, in most cases, means direct opportunities for first nations communities. In recent years the industry has been inundated with such buzzwords as “duty to consult”. Although many opportunities have been realized within the aboriginal communities, many supportive mining companies have recently been falsely accused, by lawyers who represent these same aboriginal groups, of not consulting with first nations.

You may be wondering how this is relevant to today's discussion on the development of the potential resources in northern Ontario's Ring of Fire and the rest of Canada. I'll get to that question in just a couple of minutes.

First, what has brought us the present opportunity in northern Ontario, now known as the Ring of Fire? Is it infrastructure? No, there is none. Ontario is a very expensive mining district in which to explore for minerals or develop a mining project. Building a mill and mine site, even when roads and power are nearby, is so expensive that unless one has a project of world-class size, it's simply not feasible to develop anything in the Ring of Fire.

Cliffs Natural Resources has a deposit with the economic size to support initial infrastructure costs, which will allow other smaller mines to be economical.

Concerning future opportunities, exploration companies such as ours have taken a chance on the favourable geology and spent hundreds of millions of dollars exploring for exploitable resources in northern Ontario. I'll say once more that world-class deposits are rare and not found often; that's why we only occasionally label one as being world class.

Cliffs Natural Resources owns and is developing the Big Daddy chromite deposit, the only deposit large enough to support the initial infrastructure development costs. Cliffs Natural Resources has been involved in the mining of natural resources for a long time and has a reliable reputation.

The stakes are high with the cost of their development. Incidentally, correct me if I'm wrong; when I saw your number of $500 million, I thought it would be closer to $1 billion, all in.

Once their project has met all the rigorous environmental standards that are scientifically proven best practices, the project, with the aid of the proposed road corridor, will be fast-tracked into production.

How will this proposed road development affect other exploration plans? As an example, our company, White Tiger Mining Corp., traded publicly on the TSX venture exchange under symbol WTC, has developed a smaller deposit known as the Norton Lake property. It's located approximately 140 kilometres south along the proposed road corridor and about 40 kilometres due west.

The Norton Lake nickel, copper, cobalt, and PGM deposit remains open on surface and at depth down-dip. To date we've spent approximately $5 million on this project, and it has an NI 43-101-compliant resource of 2.2 million tonnes. At current metal values, the deposit has a current gross metal value of approximately $200 per tonne.

There are many other opportunities that will evolve with the development of a road along the proposed corridor. It's of interest and a coincidence that many other exploration opportunities are being explored along this proposed north-south road corridor.

White Tiger, during the past two years, without certainty of how to market economically, has postponed further development of its Norton Lake deposit. Everything changes once a proposed road is approved. If approval comes, we'll be able to commission a feasibility study to determine the economic and technical viability of the Norton Lake deposit.

In terms of streamlining the EA process, with regard to the aboriginal first nations and others who remain split on the idea of streamlining the EA process, I think it's fair to say that we all respect first nations' desire for discussion or negotiation. The desire to streamline the EA process is known to be overdue. It will create a more efficient process and at the same time not be a detriment to the process.

Streamlining is not unique in concept to Ontario. Other provinces are doing likewise, such as British Columbia, where they refer to it as harmonizing.

Turning to political involvement, we want to thank Mr. Harper and both the federal and provincial governments of Canada for committing to working with first nations and for recognizing that the resource sector and national interests should not be held captive to long-overdue legislative changes. As well, the industry needs the Government of Canada to provide clarity and direction to the current uncertainty in the resource industry. What is meant or required as “duty to consult” with first nations?

The industry recognizes its duty to engage in socio-economic participation agreements, but currently many first nations, during the exploration phase, construe the duty to consult as a duty to tax the industry in unique ways, and some bands are requesting payments for each exploration drill hole on crown land. As well, I've heard from some contractors that they've been approached by first nations groups that have a desire to create partnerships without making any equity involvement, expecting a percentage of the profits with no participation other than “you work with us.”

First nations cannot be faulted for their creative tenacity, although we do not believe that they have the right to tax while we work on crown land, especially while a project has no economic value. Junior exploration companies do not generate revenues and cannot afford the current financial uncertainty at the early exploration stage; it's just a simple fact. First nations' efforts should be focused on discussion and negotiation with the Government of Canada. Mr. Harper has expressed that the Government of Canada is dedicated to doing so.

The resource industry needs this issue addressed with firm, sound clarity; otherwise, financing exploration projects here in Canada may become impossible, as we are living in a global economy.

I've heard that a few companies within the Ring of Fire have already agreed to make payments on a per exploration hole basis. This formula or similar ones are absurd and a danger to Canada's future. To maintain a viable exploration industry, we need certainty. The long-term well-being of our industry is dependent on very significant private sector funding, which is now being threatened. We need some direction from government, as we are only businessmen and not well versed on these issues, as lawyers or politicians are.

How do we make it happen? No matter how large a company is, there are financial realities. Debts must be repaid and profit margins maintained in our business, all within the cyclical nature of the commodities markets.

With the demise of derivatives markets, the near collapse of the euro, and government bank bailouts in the United States, Cliffs Natural Resources is to be commended for keeping its major project alive and on schedule. The potential benefits to northern Ontario and the rest of Canada are enormous. The mining industry is a great business and offers a wealth of opportunity to all of Canada, but it's like a fruit tree in so many ways: if you let the fruit mature, there will be lots for all to pick, but if you pick it prematurely, there will be nothing for anyone.

With that, I want to thank you all.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Coombes, for your presentation.

Now, from the Matawa First Nations, we go to Raymond Ferris, coordinator, Ring of Fire.

Please go ahead with your presentation, Mr. Ferris.

[Raymond Ferris, Coordinator, Ring of Fire, Matawa First Nations]

Thank you very much for allowing me and our first nation to be present at this gathering.

My name is Raymond Ferris. I represent the nine first nations within the Matawa First Nations Tribal Council. In our tribal council, there are 10,000 members, of which there are Ojibway, Ojibway-Cree, and Cree.

The mine site itself, the Ring of Fire, is located within the traditional lands of the Marten Falls First Nation and the Webequie First Nation. The whole project, including the corridors, will impact several first nations, as there are three major rivers that will be crossed by these corridors. Impacts to the water are very important for our first nation people to understand.

The nine member communities of Matawa First Nations are located in and around an area known as the Ring of Fire in northern Ontario. The lands in the Ring of Fire have plentiful natural resources and are said to hold some of the richest minerals in Canada. Tens of thousands of mineral claims have been staked and have led to the discovery of commercially important finds of nickel, copper, gold, silver, platinum, palladium, and chromite. These natural resources are attracting the interest of hundreds of Canadian and international mineral and mining companies that want to explore and mine our traditional lands.

However, it is important to know that this area, long before it became known as the Ring of Fire, was exclusively the homeland of the Matawa First Nations. Most of our communities are signatories to Treaty 9, which we understand to be a political relationship with the crown, based upon the principles of friendship, mutual respect, and sharing. Our ancestors agreed to work together with the crown as partners in shaping the future of this vast northern region.

Many of our people still make their living from the land and have deep concerns about the changes that these developments will bring. We know simply from reading the project descriptions that these developments will bring benefits as well as create impacts. We have been demanding a process that will enable our people to fully understand what these projects mean to them.

Without even getting into the details, we understand that the projects now proposed involve hundreds of kilometres of new all-season roads crossing over more than 100 water bodies, including three major rivers. Mining will occur in an internationally significant wetland area—the James Bay lowlands—and will require major engineering for water diversion and drainage.

Pollution from the mines from machinery, transport trucks, and processing equipment will affect the surrounding environment, including the fish, wildlife, and plants our people rely on. Fuel and chemicals required by the mines present major environmental concerns during transportation and raise the possibility of spills during shipment and transfer.

New roads and infrastructure corridors, including a proposed slurry pipeline, will fragment the habitat of migratory animals—caribou, moose, etc.—and disrupt their travel routes.

Waste rock and tailings from the mines have the potential to release harmful chemicals to the environment and will remain on the land long after the mines are closed.

In regard to the EA process, to deal with these issues our chiefs have been demanding a joint review panel environmental assessment since May 2011, in letters to both Minister Kent and the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency and to the Government of Ontario. Put simply, we believe it is important to address both the project-specific as well as the cumulative and regional environmental effects of the Cliffs and Noront projects, and to bring together the first nations and the provincial and federal governments in an efficient process that will enable our community members to fully participate in the environmental assessment process.

We believe that a panel that can hold hearings in the Matawa communities with provisions for translation, oral evidence, and questioning by the people most affected by the Ring of Fire is far more appropriate than a mere comprehensive study review, which is conducted on paper by bureaucrats.

However, Canada responded by referring both the Cliffs and Noront developments to a comprehensive study level of review. The Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency also informed our chiefs that the agency will use the environmental assessment process as the main forum through which consultations will take place.

On October 21, 2011, Matawa chiefs held a media conference to announce we were withdrawing support for the development of the Ring of Fire because of our concerns that a comprehensive study type of EA is inadequate to address the impacts of development on this scale in a manner that is appropriate to work for our communities.

On November 7, 2011, the chiefs filed for a judicial review of the EA process in Federal Court, citing the lack of consultation and accommodation on the part of the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency.

Our objective at this point is to establish a single joint review panel EA for the projects that are structured by agreement between Canada, Ontario, and the affected Matawa first nations that will, among other things, allow sufficient time and flexibility in the process to enable our communities to fully understand the scope of the proposed developments; recognize community processes and procedures, for example, in seeking guidance from elders, using oral forms in addition to written ones, providing for oral translation and traditional knowledge, and providing opportunities for discussion of issues with both the regulators and the proponents; ensure a full review of all impacts, including the complex environmental and treaty/aboriginal rights impacts associated with the projects, and to thoroughly consider the full range of potential mitigation and accommodation measures.

Our legal case will most likely be heard in the spring or fall of 2012. In the meantime, our chiefs are lobbying government and industry to move to the negotiated joint review panel EA as soon as possible to avoid further delays and hardships. We wish to stress that we are not against developments, nor are we trying to delay the process; rather, we are trying to move ahead as quickly as we can, in a way that fully involves our communities as partners in the process, rather than as bystanders to it.

Chief Eli Moonias of Marten Falls First Nation says, “The government is failing in this whole Ring of Fire and northern development initiative. ...We need the Ontario Premier and the Prime Minister to intervene and come to the table. We need a government-to-government dialogue here.”

“We are pro-development, as long as we are protecting our resources and traditional lands for the benefit of future generations.” says former Chief Roger Oskineegish, Nibinamik First Nation.

“Matawa Chiefs are lobbying the Ontario government and Cliffs and Noront to support us in a joint review panel EA”, said Chief Sonny Gagnon, Aroland First Nation, who, by the way, is with me today.

“We need to talk about the environment in a forum that respects our knowledge of the land, our oral tradition, and our decision-making process”, says Chief Peter Moonias of the Neskantaga First Nation.

We have been open to discussion with Cliffs and Noront, and we believe there is common ground with the developers who have themselves proposed an enhanced EA process. On January 19 we met with Bill Boor from Cliffs. We have begun some discussions about an enhanced EA and we are now passing some ideas back and forth. They have passed us their ideas, and we want to expand on those as well. That's the kind of partnership we're looking at, and we need the government to be involved.

The Honourable Peter Kent, Minister of the Environment, can refer these projects to a review panel EA at any time, based on information that there is or is likely to be, one, significant adverse effects on the environment; two, significant public concern; and three, infringement on aboriginal treaty rights.

Matawa chiefs insist that the Cliffs and Noront projects meet all of these conditions and believe that a joint review panel EA process should be negotiated between Canada, Ontario, and the Matawa communities without further delay.

The first nations want to be partners throughout the life cycle of this mine. The first nations can be part of a solution that will create a big economy for the whole region and throughout Ontario, Canada, and the whole globe.

With that, I thank you very much for listening.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you for your presentation.

We go to the final presentation for today. It's from the Nishnawbe Aski Nation, represented by Deputy Grand Chief Les Louttit. For the members, please note that the spelling on the card up there isn't accurate. It starts with an “L“.

Please go ahead with your presentation, sir, and then we'll get to questions and comments.

[Deputy Grand Chief Les Louttit, Deputy Grand Chief, Nishnawbe Aski Nation]

Thank you, sir, and thank you, gentlemen, for allowing Nishnawbe Aski Nation to be represented here and to make a presentation.

Nishnawbe Aski Nation is a provincial territorial first nation organization that has a membership of 49 first nations in northern Ontario, which represents about two-thirds of the land mass, the height of land being the southern border from Quebec over to Manitoba. This also includes several tribal councils, seven in total, which includes the Matawa First Nations that my friend here has represented.

My presentation consists of two items.

First, we emailed a document called “Key Considerations for Resource Development in NAN Territory”, focusing on mining. That is a discussion paper. From that paper I've prepared a slide deck, which I'm going to refer to.

The Ring of Fire has the potential to become the major significant mineral development in northern Ontario, which will have huge economic impacts across the province, particularly on the surrounding NAN first nation communities. It will provide unique opportunities for first nations to plan for sustainable economic development in several broad areas: workforce training, land use planning, service and manufacturing industries, business partnerships, and equity participation, including regional and community infrastructure development.

There is a regulatory framework currently in place, and Ring of Fire development will provide a key test on existing provincial policy under the following legislation that is currently in place or in development: first of all, the Ontario Mining Act, which will attempt to regulate the exploration activities along the mining sequence directly proportional to the crown's duty to consult and accommodate; the Green Energy Act, which promised more enabling mechanisms to allow first nations participation and partnership in both generation and transmission development; and the Far North Act, whose goals are to protect 225,000 square kilometres of our homelands through community-based land use plans under the Ministry of Natural Resources rules.

How will these acts effectively benefit NAN first nations during these major resource developments?

Opportunities in the Ring of Fire can bring immense benefits and wealth to NAN first nation communities, which could supply the workforce to close the growing labour gap in Canada and specifically in northern Ontario. It is estimated that the mining sector alone will require up to 100,000 workers during the next decade in northern Canada. With the proper education and training, our growing first nation population of youth will be northern Ontario's future workforce. This demographic trend will, in itself, make NAN first nations a major force and player in the future economy of northern Ontario.

With regard to the proposed infrastructure, there are two key infrastructure requirements that are being considered by the mining proponents within the Ring of Fire developments. In terms of transportation requirements, KWG Resources is undertaking a geotechnical study for a potential north-south railway corridor from its mineral claim south to the Canadian National railroad near Nakina; in its technical report for the Eagle's Nest nickel deposit, Noront Resources proposes an east-west all-weather corridor from its site to Pickle Lake, Ontario; and Cliffs Natural Resources is also proposing a north-south all-weather road corridor from its mine site to Nakina.

The energy requirements are as follows: Noront Resources will require approximately 25 megawatts for its concentrator and mine at its site, and will require transportation of its nickel concentrate to existing processing facilities; Cliffs Natural Resources will require 300 megawatts to operate its mine and concentrator at its site, and another 300 megawatts for a ferrochrome processing at a site near Capreol, north of Sudbury.

All of these infrastructure requirements will present unlimited business opportunities for NAN First Nation business owners and potential partners. I would like to add here that from our past conferences, I know it is the desire of our first nations to take ownership of the infrastructure requirements in terms of transportation, energy, and other local and regional infrastructure.

I will next address community Infrastructure. In the past, we have seen mining companies simply bypass our communities after they've extracted all the wealth. The Ring of Fire creates a tremendous opportunity whereby the mining corporations can also support investment for community infrastructure in first nations through partnership agreements and/or impact benefit agreements. Such investment precedents have already been established with aboriginal organizations and communities in the Northwest Territories and Nunavut.

As an example, BHP Billiton’s community partnership program provides financial and in-kind contributions for community infrastructure initiatives. Rio Tinto has also funded infrastructure upgrades in remote communities, including construction of a new community centre at the Tlicho community of Weweti and new arenas in the Inuit community of Kugluktuk and the Treaty 8 community of Lutsel K’e. Since the Department of Indian Affairs' major capital budgets are in decline, in future NAN first nations may negotiate these infrastructure needs through agreements with mining companies operating within the Ring of Fire such as KWG, Noront, Cliffs, and others.

Of course you've heard the Matawa First Nations' reaction to the proposed Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency’s initiation of the comprehensive study. They have consistently called for a joint review panel EA process, as per their resolution passed in May 2011. A joint review panel EA would allow for first nation nominees on the panel as well as comprehensive public hearings and information centres in the impacted NAN first nation communities.

NAN supports Matawa First Nations' actions and requests for the joint review panel. We note that first nations in British Columbia are currently participating fully in the EA hearing process of the Northern Gateway pipeline hearings.

Why is that different? Why is that not happening here in Ontario in terms of the required panel review hearings, which should allow all our first nation members in each community to be aware of the impacts and to have participation and input into those issues that concern them?

The next slide refers to community relations and benefits. I'm not going to go into this aspect, but it refers to establishing working relationships between mining companies and first nations early during the mining sequence. I believe that hasn't been happening. It is expected that such relationships would promote additional benefits in terms of employment, traditional ecological knowledge, education, skills training, etc. including financial cash compensation.

NAN's major concern is the development of a negotiation framework. We have experienced a situation involving De Beers' Victor Mine project in northern Ontario near the first nation of Attawapiskat. That development did not benefit the first nations along the James Bay coast. As an example, the Province of Ontario, through its royalty structures, claims between 6% and 13% of the gross profits over the life cycle of the mine; however, the first nations, through the individual impact benefits agreements, have received less than 1% of the net profits after all expenses were deducted.

Consequently, we would like to promote a negotiations framework that will result in maximizing benefits for NAN first nations so that we avoid another Attawapiskat, another De Beers project. A unified regional negotiation process among a group of first nations will allow us to exact more leverage, benefits, and environmental protection measures than several individual agreements.

It is understandable that an individual first nation, or two or three first nations, may enter into memorandums of understanding or memorandums of intent for early exploration or for actual full exploration activities of the mining sequence. However, with a large-scale mining project, it would be desirable to collectively negotiate regional participation agreements among impacted NAN first nations.

There are several reasons for this. First and foremost, the principle of sharing our lands and resources was the key element agreed to by our forefathers that led to the signings of Treaty 9 and Treaty 5. The Nishnawbe Aski Nation has a responsibility to protect the treaty and aboriginal rights of not only the Matawa First Nations but also of the rest of the NAN first nations as a whole, as they will be impacted.

Why was Ontario the only signatory to Treaty 9, the only provincial signatory of all the treaties in Canada? There is only one reason: the lands and resources. We see that time and time again.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Deputy Grand Chief, you're over time by two minutes already. Could you give a 30-second wrap-up so that we can get to questions and comments? I'm sure a lot of the information you're giving will come out in questions anyway.

[Deputy Grand Chief Les Louttit]

Thank you very much.

I want to conclude by saying that the Nishnawbe Aski Nation supports the presentations of the NAN First Nations individually or collectively, and we support the extraction of maximum benefits for our first nations in any major development that will happen on our homelands.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you.

Thank you all for your presentations.

We'll go now to questions and comments in the seven-minute round. We will start with Mr. Anderson and then go to Monsieur Gravelle and Mr. McGuinty.

Go ahead, please, Mr. Anderson.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Gentlemen, I'd like to get a sense of the opportunities that are being provided by these projects.

Mr. Ferris, you said that you represent nine first nations. Did you say two of them are directly impacted or are directly in the area where the mining projects are proposed? Is that correct? For the other seven, are you saying that their impact would be more from the transportation corridors and those kinds of things?

[Raymond Ferris]

Yes, that's correct.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

You say you represent 10,000 members. I'm wondering how many are in the area of the mines. What would be the number of people living in that area?

[Raymond Ferris]

I would say that within Marten Falls and Webequie and a couple of other communities as well, Neskantaga and the Eabametoong, there are maybe about 4,000 members in that area.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Then this question is probably to the companies. What were the employment levels that you're suggesting these projects would generate in the area?

[William Boor]

At the mine site for our project, the range we're working from is about 300 to 500 direct jobs. That doesn't include the jobs associated with the camp, the accommodations complex. We did a study early on in the project that put about a 2.8 multiplier of indirect to direct jobs, so a quick answer would be 300 to 500 direct, and a couple multiples of that indirectly.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

You're saying it would be 1,500 or 2,000.

[William Boor]

That's at the mine site, and then I also mentioned that the corridor would bring approximately 300 more jobs of the transportation and maintenance type.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Mr. Coombes, obviously this project would have a significant impact.

We've talked about this next area a lot in our discussions about northern energy strategy. What are you doing to engage the communities? Do you have a plan for providing the educational opportunities that need to be provided so that people can work in those jobs? We've talked about this lots. Often there are lots of human resources in the area, but not the educational opportunities or educational resources to be able to use them. Are you addressing that issue yet?

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Go ahead, Mr. Coombes.

[Ronald Coombes]

As mining exploration companies, for the most part our field workers are first nations, aboriginals. We try to maintain a right of first refusal. Do we help in the training process at the exploration level? Yes, we do. It's pretty limited at the exploration level.

With Cliffs Resources, however, it will be a different situation altogether. For instance, if we develop our molybdenum deposit in British Columbia there will be educational benefits and all of the socio-economic benefits. You can refer to it as a SEPA or an IBA agreement. All those impacts are held within that agreement.

I'll ask Mr. Boor to address the question. He can probably answer it better than I can.

[William Boor]

I agree with the comments as they relate to our exploration work that is going on. We're definitely not doing what you're talking about. We need to do both life skills and job training in the communities, but you can see with the employment numbers that we have a tremendous opportunity here. It's mutually beneficial.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

It might have a huge impact.

Mr. Ferris, what are your thoughts on that?

[Raymond Ferris]

Although we're at the exploration stage right now, when the mine comes about, there will be many jobs. The problem we have is that these 300 or so jobs are highly technical, and our people right now are facing an unemployment rate of about 90%. The education level of our people is not very high.