Evidence of meeting #39 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was alberta.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
—because you're talking about having too much work in Alberta, you need more workers, and unfortunately, what's happening is salaries are going up and people without work are actually getting work.
When I was listening to you I thought these are the things business should be complaining about, not someone who supposedly represents workers in an economy.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
I want to move on to the other folks here and ask them about two things.
I would like you to talk a little bit about devolution, if you would. You mentioned devolution in the two territories and some of the impacts of that. Can you tell me how you see that working out in the future, what the benefits have been, and what they are? We have heard other witnesses earlier talk about this as well. I'm just wondering what your role is in devolution. How important is that in the north in order to move ahead on these projects?
Director General, Northern Oil and Gas, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
In our sector—the northern affairs sector—we lead that exercise for the minister. We participate as oil and gas managers in those discussions. We devolved oil and gas management and legislative control to Yukon a number of years ago, over a decade ago. We are currently in the process of negotiating that transfer to the Northwest Territories.
The benefit is that you have decision-making closer to the population. You have a more consolidated government view in terms of employment and the pace of development in the region. You have more stakeholders closer to the elected officials who are making those decisions on the pace of development.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
We have heard lots about the need to upgrade educational opportunities and participation. Do you play any role in that? Do you have any programs? Do you work with over levels of government to encourage that?
That has been a recurring theme we have heard when we have talked about development in the north and trying to do a good job of doing that.
Director General, Northern Oil and Gas, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Largely, I can point to the Canada benefits plan Michel talked about. Our guidance over the years has been for the industry not only to work with the local population but also to work with territorial governments, because they have the lead in terms of education and training.
Coming back to one of the responses earlier, if there is a major development, like the Mackenzie gas project years ago, there is definitely a concerted federal effort for training and apprenticeship programs.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
What would be your role, then, in dealing with private investment and the territorial governments in those areas?
Director General, Northern Oil and Gas, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
It comes back to the Canada benefits plan. The minister has to approve those plans before any activity can be approved by the National Energy Board. We make sure the industry has then investigated all of those possibilities to pull in the territorial governments and their education programs.
Michel, do you want to add to that at all?
Conservative
Director, Policy and Research, Northern Oil and Gas Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Yes. Just to add one point, as part of our program around the approval of the Canada benefit plans, we do require evidence surrounding training opportunities for northerners and aboriginal residents of the north as well. As you can appreciate, it requires a very precise matching of training and capabilities to the actual opportunities and the industrial activities that are proposed.
We have the benefit of having some lead time in our program, from the time we issue the rights to the time a well is actually drilled. During that time we actually expect companies to offer training opportunities for workers, who many times have certain foundational competencies but require some upgrading to participate in the opportunities.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you, Mr. Anderson. Your time is up.
We go now to Mr. Nicholls, for up to five minutes.
NDP
Jamie Nicholls NDP Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
First of all, Mr. McGowan, I would like to praise your courage, particularly in the McCarthyesque line of questioning that is put to you on a regular basis. I appreciate the fact that you have taken altitude and looked at the big portrait that we're facing as a country and that Canadians are facing, and to look at what's good for all Canadians. In effect, you are sort of zooming out and looking at the big picture rather than looking at the short term. I thank you for that.
Mr. Chenier and Ms. Fortier, thank you for joining us today.
I would also like to talk about progress. You talked about the benefits for the north, and I am very interested in that. The situation is often considered on a project-by-project basis and in the short term. I recently read an article by Anthony Speca, in the May issue of Policy Options. Here is a summary of that article:
[...] assessment of Ottawa's approach to sharing natural resource revenues with its three northern territories might go like this: Yukon got the least attractive deal, the Northwest Territories got a much better one—but Greenland got the best deal of all [through its agreement with Denmark]. Left on the sidelines, Nunavut has had to content itself with an advance look at the terms on offer, including the comparatively generous terms Greenland obtained from Denmark. Should Nunavut try to match Greenland's revenue-sharing deal for itself?
I am quoting this article because the north is facing some major challenges....
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Mr. Nicholls, sorry for interrupting. We'll stop the clock for a minute.
It came across in translation that you were quoting from a certain magazine. I don't know whether you gave its name.
Conservative
NDP
Jamie Nicholls NDP Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC
Could you tell me what the challenges in revenue-sharing are? Could improvements be made in Nunavut's case? What is the department's direction?
Director, Policy and Research, Northern Oil and Gas Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Thank you.
Ms. Fortier and I work for the Department of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development. We are in charge of the rights issuance program for the north. Clearly, your questions are a bit more general. The Canadian government's income transfer program for the territories and negotiations under an assessment process are issues that involve fiscal policy, which comes under the Department of Finance's jurisdiction.
NDP
Jamie Nicholls NDP Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC
Okay. That raises another question.
If you establish agreements with aboriginal groups in the north, develop environmental studies and hold consultations—possibly with the National Energy Board—all your work may be set aside under a piece of legislation voted on in the House. Is that correct?
Are you planning on changing your department's strategy in anticipation of that legislation?
Director, Policy and Research, Northern Oil and Gas Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I'm not sure I understand your question.
NDP
Jamie Nicholls NDP Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC
If, for instance, your department concludes an agreement with an aboriginal group and conducts environmental studies, the cabinet may decide that the project is so important as to override the agreement.
Do you plan to proceed in that way in the future?
Director, Policy and Research, Northern Oil and Gas Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
There are several aspects to your question. If my understanding is correct, regarding environmental assessments, specific legislative provisions are currently being considered.
As Ms. Fortier said at the beginning of her presentation, we make a clear distinction between, on the one hand, economic decisions—decisions involving the issuance of rights and the establishment of a royalty regime—and, on the other hand, environmental assessment decisions. In the north, those decisions come under the jurisdiction of the National Energy Board.
NDP
Jamie Nicholls NDP Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC
Let's say you have concluded an agreement with an aboriginal group. Would you be bothered by the fact that a cabinet member has completely set aside that agreement in order to bring forward a project? I am talking about a personal point of view, about Canadian history and about the relationship between the government and first nations.