Natural Resources Committee on May 15th, 2012

[Martin von Mirbach]

It would be done with difficulty. A typical way is to contain an oil spill with booms, and then burn it in situ, but those methods simply don't work if there's ice in the water. The ice interferes with them. You can't boom the area.

It really depends on ice conditions, which change from week to week and region to region. I can't make a sweeping generalization, but the presence of ice adds enormous complexity to containing the spill. As well, the coldness interferes with the effectiveness of dispersants.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Merci, monsieur Gravelle.

Mr. Calkins.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Thank you, Chair, and my thanks to our witnesses for being here today. It's truly a pleasure to meet another University of Alberta alumnus. That's great.

In earlier iterations of this committee, we heard from the Northern Projects Management Office on their ability to facilitate and be a portal in helping various applicants navigate the complexities of getting projects approved. Mr. Binder, Mr. Deir, and Mr. von Mirbach, do you have any comments on whether you have had any dealings with or see any value in the Northern Projects Management Office?

[Dr. Michael Binder]

They are trying to organize. It's a new creation. We know the people. If they are up and running, we intend to use them. They're going to have their feet on the ground, and we hope they can assist us. This is a vast territory. To get to all the communities and try to explain what is being done, what is being proposed, we need all the help we can get. So we're looking forward to working with them.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Mr. Deir, do you have any experience with the Northern Projects Management Office?

[Christopher Deir]

Not directly, no, but organizations like that help to make things happen. They know the rules and regulations and the people better than anybody else.

[Martin von Mirbach]

We haven't had any interactions that would allow me to shed any useful light on them.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

No problem.

Mr. Binder, in your presentation you said that in a cradle-to-grave scenario your regulatory agency looks after everything from the approval of a mine to the eventual cleanup after decommissioning. We know that this hasn't always been the case. How many sites do we have that still require cleanup and mediation and mitigation?

[Dr. Michael Binder]

I can't remember the exact number, but we are slowly bringing into the regulatory framework a number of old mines that were left abandoned. We're trying to bring them back as close to nature as possible. That's our intent. That's why we are so aggressive in demanding upfront money on any mine for future cleanup. We assess it.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

The process includes getting a bond or some kind of deposit. What is that mechanism and how does it work? In the oil sands, money is held in a fund to make sure that reclamation, remediation, and all of these kinds of things will happen if a company is unable to fulfill its obligations. In such cases, financial resources are there to deal with those risks so the taxpayers don't have to. Can you tell us what kind of instruments you use?

[Dr. Michael Binder]

The most popular one is the irrevocable line of credit, which we, and only the CNSC, can tap in case a company goes bankrupt. There are different mechanisms for doing this. Every five years, we re-assess it to make sure of the adequacy of the funds. I don't know if you're familiar with the Cluff Lake uranium mine in Saskatchewan. Right now in their fund there's $30 million for cleanup. The moment it starts, we have access to it.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

That's a pretty good safety net for the taxpayers. It makes sure those things are taken care of.

In your presentation, you highlighted the potential for mines in the north, that is, north of 60. How many applications are you aware of that pertain to this region? How much potential is there? What do you see on the horizon in the way of mining applications? Is there anybody who currently has an application to bring nuclear power generation to the north?

[Dr. Michael Binder]

On the nuclear power generation, no, we have not received any.

Right now there is a formal application. One, this is Kiggavik, a big AREVA mine with multiple sites in there. They are exploring quite a bit. I hate to give a number because exploration is held close to the chest. They don't like to brag until they find it, but there is a lot of activity in the uranium field now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Okay, thank you, Mr. Calkins.

Our time is up, but Mr. Julian has indicated that he would like to have his motion dealt with today. I would like to thank you all very much for coming, making your presentations, and answering questions.

Mr. McGuinty, you have a point of order.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Before our witnesses leave, I was wondering if we could, through you, assure the committee members that we will get from Mr. Binder detailed Fukushima costing in terms of the spill, and from Mr. von Mirbach the costing with respect to the Exxon Valdez and BP incidents.

I also wanted to raise, because I have not heard back from you or the clerk, the question I had asked Madame Mimi Forter at the last meeting. I requested from her a detailed synopsis of the existing research around emergency preparedness and response in the Beaufort Sea. Her colleague, Mr. Michel Chenier, committed to send us that material. I just wanted to make sure that we get that for our deliberations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Yes. Mr. Binder indicated that he has no such figures, that he was drawing those numbers entirely from the media.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

You're right, Mr. Chair. I stand corrected.

Actually, what I asked Mr. Binder to provide us with was a list of the 66 environmental assessment processes that have taken place since 2003, to help the committee members understand how long these processes took place.

[Dr. Michael Binder]

I'll do that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Great. Thank you, Mr. Binder.

We will suspend for about a minute or so. I'd like to ask committee members that if they want to talk to the witnesses privately they should do it outside the room so we can get right to this motion. We will suspend the meeting for about a minute and then come back and deal with Mr. Julian's motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

We resume the committee meeting.

Mr. Julian, you had indicated that you would like to bring up your motion. I would assume it would be the second motion you submitted. The first one was out of order, of course, because a committee cannot refer legislation to a committee. That must be done by the House.

The House had actually referred the legislation to the finance committee, so that was done. Would you read your motion, Mr. Julian, and explain or speak to it, if you would like.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. We did make some revisions. I would like to move the following motion:

That, the Standing Committee on Natural Resources immediately undertake a study on the subject matter of the sections of Bill C-38, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 29, 2012 and other measures, which directly fall within the mandate of this committee, namely Part 3, Division 2, National Energy Board Act; Part 3, Division 3, Canada Oil and Gas Operations Act; Part 3, Division 4, Nuclear Safety and Control Act; Part 4, Division 38, Coasting Trade Act.

I'm moving that motion. There's no need to have a great discussion. I was just going to speak for about 30 seconds to this. The bill itself, Bill C-38, is massive, as you know, Mr. Chair.

The bill is being referred to the finance committee for study, but as you know, the expertise on natural resources is here around this committee table. What we are suggesting is not a dramatic departure from past parliamentary practice—in fact, the bill is such a departure, not this motion. What we're suggesting is that the committee study the areas that fall within its domain.

The government will benefit from this because of the expertise we have around the table. It will provide for the accountability and oversight that Canadians expect and, certainly, insofar as the confidence of Canadians in a proper vetting of Bill C-38 is concerned, there's no way the public can have confidence if the bill is referred to the finance committee when aspects of it directly touch on natural resources.

For all of those reasons, we're moving this motion so that we can study the impact of Bill C-38.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you very much, Mr. Julian.

Seeing no further intervention, we will go directly to the vote.

Those in favour of Mr. Julian's motion?

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Could we have a recorded vote?

(Motion negatived: nays 6; yeas 5)

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

As you can see, Mr. Julian, your motion is defeated.

I guess we will have the bells soon, but the business of this committee is over, so we will see you on Thursday.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Before you bring that gavel down, what are we doing on Thursday? How are we doing with witnesses? What's the general update?